[usual suspect]

Lesley wrote:

>>So then we should be boycotting every nation that slaughters cows as well?
>
> The massive reaction

What "massive reaction"? The reaction is from the same groups that complained 15
years ago. There's not much clamor about it here, where folks are talking about
Roger Clemens, Iraq, Lex's and Kathy's stupid move on Survivor, and American
Idol (not necessarily in that order).

> against the seal killing is mostly because it
> is _extremely_ cruel-

Ipse dixit. What's "extreme" or "cruel" about a limited seal hunt?

> and carried out on a massive scale too.

Massive scale my ass. Re-read the regulations.

> Many seals suffer in indescribably

*Try* describing it, sweetheart.

> awful ways,

What's more awful about shooting seals than shooting deer, squirrels, or even
the slaughter of beef, pork, or poultry? Tim's question was apropos, and all
you've done is dance around the issue and throw out a bunch of redundant adverbs
and adjectives.

> and such scenes
> have been put into full public view this year.

Not really. It hasn't been on the news here. Most of what I've seen has been the
same agitprop of baby seals being clubbed from, forgive me for calling them
this, the usual suspects. Nevermind the fact that the hunt is of adults, not
pups, and that guns, not clubs, are being used.

> Faced with images of extreme cruelty,

Old images from the same old extremist groups.

> people have been badly shocked

Emotive appeals rather than reason.

> and then outraged,

I find the response of emotional ninnies like you humorous.

> and that is, understandably, directed at the country
> that carries out this horror.

It's not a horror.

> Were the realities of 'meat production'
> made public in a similar manner,

It's not a dark secret.

> I think that most people would
> be similarly compelled to oppose that,

They know meat is from dead animals, yet they eat it anyway.

> and would be boycotting
> the meat industry by abstaining from meat -

Why aren't they already?

> especially when
> properly informed with the facts about nutrition-

Which they won't get from foot-rubbing charlatans like you.

> that we're not
> a naturally carnivorous species anyway..

We're naturally omnivorous, like other primates. Chimps and apes eat meat. So
did our ancient ancestors.

> (clue: we're primates).

We know you're unevolved, monkey girl, but cut the rest of us some slack.

Archived from group: uk>environment>conservation

[pearl]

"Tim" wrote in message $Gp4.205295@news20.bellglobal.com...
pearl wrote:
"Tim" wrote in message $Gp4.108741@news20.bellglobal.com...

> > >So, would you be happy if they killed them the same way they kill cows?

> > No, indeed not. Most 'livestock' suffers considerably up to, and also
> > at slaughter. As you can see, this has been addressed elsewhere..

> So then we should be boycotting every nation that slaughters cows as well?

The massive reaction against the seal killing is mostly because it
is _extremely_ cruel-, and carried out on a massive scale too.
Many seals suffer in indescribably awful ways, and such scenes
have been put into full public view this year. Faced with images
of extreme cruelty, people have been badly shocked and then
outraged, and that is, understandably, directed at the country
that carries out this horror. Were the realities of 'meat production'
made public in a similar manner, I think that most people would
be similarly compelled to oppose that, and would be boycotting
the meat industry by abstaining from meat - especially when
properly informed with the facts about nutrition- that we're not
a naturally carnivorous species anyway.. (clue: we're primates).

[pearl]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A20625-2004Apr17?language=printer

[pearl]

http://www.iol.ie/~creature/BiologicalAdaptations.htm

[Jeff T]

I got something to say to you ignorant, arrogant Brits, and others about the
seal hunt. Clean up your own back yards before complaining about ours! How
many fox hunts happen each year, eh? Oh, let me guess, it is considered
"humane" to hunt down a fox with 20 baying dogs and then kill it for the
fur. During the seal hunt, damn near every part of the animal is used... And
further, man is the ONLY natural prediator these creatures have, as the
others have been hunted to near extinction decades ago.

So I say, take your pompous ass up out of here. When the fox hunt, and other
regional hunts in other countries has been put to a stop, then, and only
then would I not think of you as a bunch of bitchy little hypocrites worthy
of nthing more then the toilet paper I wipe my ass with.

[I R Canuck]

"pearl" wrote in message $g73$1@kermit.esat.net...
> Harp seals and Cod
> Questions and Answers
>
and would like to pretend Canada is 'scapegoating' the seal>

Impact of Seal Predation on Cod

The 2001 Report of the Eminent Panel on Seal Management concluded that seals consume large amounts of fish throughout Atlantic
Canada, but there is much less evidence that this predation is having a major impact on the recovery of most commercial fish stocks.

The findings of the report were not conclusive and many uncertainties were acknowledged in providing realistic predictions. The
Panel acknowledged that gaining an understanding of the real impact of seals on the recovery of cod is extremely complex and
requires an in-depth understanding of the marine ecosystem as well as additional research. Findings highlighted in the report
include:

The consumption of cod, and some other commercial species, by seals in Divisions 2J3KL and 4RS3Pn is so large that a reduction in
seal predation could reasonably be expected to have a substantial effect on the size of these stocks. However, the extent of this
reduction would have to be large in order for an impact to be observed.

There is not a simple, straight-line relationship between seal predation and the state of fish populations. The interaction between
seals, groundfish and other species is complex and variable. For instance, seals eat cod, but seals also eat other fish that prey on
cod. Moreover, other factors such as environmental changes and fishing levels must be considered in trying to determine why cod
stocks have not yet recovered.

The harp seal population has grown to the highest level recorded. Coupled with the fact that the annual TAC has rarely been taken in
full, the panel expects a gradual increase in seal numbers if the current management approach is maintained.

The current scientific knowledge is insufficient to determine the impact of a seal cull on cod fisheries in the short, medium or
long term. Science and resource managers question the value of a cull in a fishery driven by economic market conditions. More
importantly, there is no way of knowing how other predators and prey might respond to a decrease in the seal population.

Current estimates of cod consumption by seals vary greatly from less than one per cent to more than 20 per cent of diet, depending
on the type of seal researched, the time of year and location of the studies. The panel concluded that more comprehensive research
needs to be done to more accurately estimate the amount of cod that seals are consuming.

[I R Canuck]

"pearl" wrote in message $g73$1@kermit.esat.net...
> Harp seals and Cod
> Questions and Answers

and would like to pretend Canada is 'scapegoating' the seal>

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/backgrou/2003/hq-ac01b_e.htm
__________________________________________________________
Impact of Seal Predation on Cod

The 2001 Report of the Eminent Panel on Seal Management concluded
that seals consume large amounts of fish throughout Atlantic Canada,
but there is much less evidence that this predation is having a major
impact on the recovery of most commercial fish stocks.

The findings of the report were not conclusive and many uncertainties
were acknowledged in providing realistic predictions. The Panel
acknowledged that gaining an understanding of the real impact of seals
on the recovery of cod is extremely complex and requires an in-depth
understanding of the marine ecosystem as well as additional research.
Findings highlighted in the report include:

The consumption of cod, and some other commercial species, by seals
in Divisions 2J3KL and 4RS3Pn is so large that a reduction in seal
predation could reasonably be expected to have a substantial effect on
the size of these stocks. However, the extent of this reduction would
have to be large in order for an impact to be observed.

There is not a simple, straight-line relationship between seal predation
and the state of fish populations. The interaction between seals,
groundfish and other species is complex and variable. For instance,
seals eat cod, but seals also eat other fish that prey on cod. Moreover,
other factors such as environmental changes and fishing levels must be
considered in trying to determine why cod stocks have not yet recovered.

The harp seal population has grown to the highest level recorded.
Coupled with the fact that the annual TAC has rarely been taken in full,
the panel expects a gradual increase in seal numbers if the current
management approach is maintained.

The current scientific knowledge is insufficient to determine the impact
of a seal cull on cod fisheries in the short, medium or long term. Science
and resource managers question the value of a cull in a fishery driven by
economic market conditions. More importantly, there is no way of
knowing how other predators and prey might respond to a decrease in
the seal population.

Current estimates of cod consumption by seals vary greatly from less
than one per cent to more than 20 per cent of diet, depending on the
type of seal researched, the time of year and location of the studies.
The panel concluded that more comprehensive research needs to be
done to more accurately estimate the amount of cod that seals are
consuming.
__________________________________________________________

I see no scapegoating.

[Terry Spragg]

This crap against seal harvesting is obviously posted by
professional agitators employed to erode Canadian sovereignty. It is
all emotive argument and propaganda, with no basis in reality.

Seals are part of the food chain. Humans eat seals. Seals eat fish.
Seals carry the worm that kills codfish and others. They are
predators in competition with humans, and need to be harvested in
reasonable proportion to the fish we harvest to eat, if the natural
balance is to be restored.

European draggers are killing the fish and spoiling the breeding
grounds for fish near the North American shelf. The bycatch is
wasted in appalling quantity. It amounts to an undermining of the
Canadian food chain, akin to the slaughter of the buffalo
perpetrated by newly arrived europeans hundreds of years ago.

This economic war we suffer from in so many areas (oil, wood,
potatoes, cattle, wheat, water, electricity, etc., etc.) is
conducted by wily, rich europeans who want to ruin the Canadian
economy so they can buy Canada at a discount and then exploit it as
they have exploited europe. They want to make Canada as devoid of
nature as western europe has become.

They do not like that Canadians are about the last nation on earth
where people are still somewhat free from overbearing governmental
control exercised on behalf of gigantic conscienceless corporations
who do not respect the sovereignty of free men, but are geared to
dominate and enslave all free men for only profit.

It is far more merciful to kill seals quickly, with a gun or club
than it is to let them eventually starve, having eaten all of our
fish, suffer disease, or be torn apart as playthings by voracious
dolphins, sharks and killer whales, with no benefit to native
peoples, who have been subsisting on the seal and what fish remains
for millennia, as is their natural right.

Sealskin makes excellent leather. Seal meat is excellent not only
for pet and working dogs' food, but also for people who have the
opportunity to enjoy it. Seal oil is superior to mineral oil for
many uses, and may soon become economically more profitable than
escalating oil in an artificially manipulated market.

Canadians spend more tourist dollars in europe than europeans spend
in Canada.

We should stop going there.

Terry K

pearl wrote:
> Agreed!, but two wrongs don't make a right you know. You've NO excuses,
> either.
>
> "Tim" > wrote
> in message $Gp4.24548@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Maybe you can try to get your Prime Minister to follow international
> law and not go around invading other countries that are of no threat.
> Then maybe you can get your Prime Minister to stop buddying around
> with dictators like Ghadaffi.
> Then maybe you can complain about our country.
>
> pearl wrote:
>
>>"Daniel Audet" wrote in message
>>$vF3.2454926@news20.bellglobal.com...
>>
>>
>>>I find it funny that the group based out of England/ Ireland cannot get the
>>>people of ireland to stop fighting each other, maiming and killing humans,
>>>
>>
>>
>>We're at least trying.
>>
>>
>>
>>>but are willing to try dammaging the way of life for some Canadians. They do
>>>this by stating Canada isn't following European law. Maybe he should look
>>>up where Canada is on a map.
>>>
>>
>>
>>The objection arises because of the cruelty, which is an obvious
>>serious breaching of humane conduct. Humanity everywhere is
>>objecting very strongly, and your refusal to listen harms you too.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Here's a hint. It's part of North America, not Europe. These people who
>>>struggle to make a living in a repressed economy are not subjects of
>>>England, not subject to European law and well within their rights to perform
>>>their harvesting.
>>>Work toward saving people from harm before destroying the livelyhoods of
>>>others.
>>>
>>>Dan.
>>>
>>
>>
>>'In 2001 UK tourists spent the equivalent of 1.026 billion Canadian
>>dollars - this is a massive source of income to Canada. Whereas the
>>seal hunt, by contrast, is a volatile industry and although accurate
>>figures are hard to come by it is estimated to be worth approximately
>>only Can $6 million.
>>
>>The hunt is actually heavily subsidised by the Canadian Government
>>and when the subsidies are taken into account it is worth closer to just
>>Can $3 million. '
>>http://www.boycott-canada.com/
>>
>>- Boycott is a predictable enough reaction.
>>
>>Observe http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/236982184 ,
>>and see the impact this is having on your country. People love
>>seals- they are regarded as inquisitive, friendly and intelligent
>>creatures. I'm sure you could earn a little extra cash welcoming
>>eco-friendly tourism in the area. - Just think- you are actually
>>slaughtering one of your area's best tourist $$$s earner assets!
>>
>>
>>
>>

[Jeff T]

"Invective" wrote in message$9kJ.22116@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>
> "pearl" wrote in message
> $jge$1@kermit.esat.net...
> > "Tim" wrote in message
> $Gp4.205295@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > pearl wrote:
>
> > The massive reaction against the seal killing is mostly because it
> > is _extremely_ cruel-,
>
> Bullshit. It's no more cruel than any other kind of hunt, no more cruel
than
> how we kill horses or cattle or chickens. The reaction is because they're
> cuuuuuuuuuuuuutttteeeee.
>
> > and carried out on a massive scale too.
>
> A miniscule fraction of the scale of fish killed, or cattle, or sheep, or
> chickens
>
>
>

I betcha that this Pearl creature is a huge fan of Peta as well... Would
explain some of the gross stupidity being uttered here, nothing but a bunch
of regurgitated garbage.

Tell me, how do you feel about the current Peta poster campaign in Canada?

[pearl]

"Terry Spragg" wrote in message$2oI1.80702@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>
> This crap against seal harvesting is obviously posted by
> professional agitators employed to erode Canadian sovereignty. It is
> all emotive argument and propaganda, with no basis in reality.

_That's_ emotive argument and propaganda, with no basis in reality.

> Seals are part of the food chain.

Not ours. And besides, this slaughter is for fur, not food.

> Humans eat seals.

If it's truly essential for survival, that's another matter.

> Seals eat fish.

Human's want to eat fish. Humans trawl, humans take too much.

> Seals carry the worm that kills codfish and others.

If that's true, how do the cod catch it from seals?

> They are
> predators in competition with humans,

No, humans have decided that they are predators, and take
from true predators.

> and need to be harvested in
> reasonable proportion to the fish we harvest to eat,

Humans need to eat from our own natural dietary niche-
raw fruits, succulent fruit-like vegetables, roots, shoots,
nuts and seeds. Then we can leave the rest of the animal
kingdom in peace, as we ourselves would wish to be.

> if the natural
> balance is to be restored.

It will be- when we realise what sort of animal we are.
>>
http://www.iol.ie/~creature/BiologicalAdaptations.htm

[pearl]

"I R Canuck" wrote in message$mn3.9966@clgrps13...
> "pearl" wrote in message $g73$1@kermit.esat.net...
> > Harp seals and Cod
> > Questions and Answers
>
> > and would like to pretend Canada is 'scapegoating' the seal>
>
> http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/backgrou/2003/hq-ac01b_e.htm
> __________________________________________________________
> Impact of Seal Predation on Cod
>
> The 2001 Report of the Eminent Panel on Seal Management concluded
> that seals consume large amounts of fish throughout Atlantic Canada,
> but there is much less evidence that this predation is having a major
> impact on the recovery of most commercial fish stocks.
>
> The findings of the report were not conclusive and many uncertainties
> were acknowledged in providing realistic predictions. The Panel
> acknowledged that gaining an understanding of the real impact of seals
> on the recovery of cod is extremely complex and requires an in-depth
> understanding of the marine ecosystem as well as additional research.
> Findings highlighted in the report include:
>
> The consumption of cod, and some other commercial species, by seals
> in Divisions 2J3KL and 4RS3Pn is so large that a reduction in seal
> predation could reasonably be expected to have a substantial effect on
> the size of these stocks. However, the extent of this reduction would
> have to be large in order for an impact to be observed.
>
> There is not a simple, straight-line relationship between seal predation
> and the state of fish populations. The interaction between seals,
> groundfish and other species is complex and variable. For instance,
> seals eat cod, but seals also eat other fish that prey on cod. Moreover,
> other factors such as environmental changes and fishing levels must be
> considered in trying to determine why cod stocks have not yet recovered.
>
> The harp seal population has grown to the highest level recorded.
> Coupled with the fact that the annual TAC has rarely been taken in full,
> the panel expects a gradual increase in seal numbers if the current
> management approach is maintained.
>
> The current scientific knowledge is insufficient to determine the impact
> of a seal cull on cod fisheries in the short, medium or long term. Science
> and resource managers question the value of a cull in a fishery driven by
> economic market conditions. More importantly, there is no way of
> knowing how other predators and prey might respond to a decrease in
> the seal population.
>
> Current estimates of cod consumption by seals vary greatly from less
> than one per cent to more than 20 per cent of diet, depending on the
> type of seal researched, the time of year and location of the studies.
> The panel concluded that more comprehensive research needs to be
> done to more accurately estimate the amount of cod that seals are
> consuming.
> __________________________________________________________
>
> I see no scapegoating.

'Canadian Natural Resources Minister John Efford said many
claims about the hunt were simply wrong. He argued that the
seal population was exploding - with an estimated 5.2 million
harp seals in the North Atlantic at present – and commercial
fish stocks were vanishing. '
http://www.indolink.com/displayArticleS.php?id=041304105510

[I R Canuck]

"pearl" wrote in message $5m3$1@kermit.esat.net...
> "I R Canuck" wrote in message
> $mn3.9966@clgrps13...
> > "pearl" wrote in message $g73$1@kermit.esat.net...
> > > Harp seals and Cod
> > > Questions and Answers
> >
> > > > and would like to pretend Canada is 'scapegoating' the seal>
> >
> > http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/backgrou/2003/hq-ac01b_e.htm
> > __________________________________________________________
> > Impact of Seal Predation on Cod
> >
> > The 2001 Report of the Eminent Panel on Seal Management concluded
> > that seals consume large amounts of fish throughout Atlantic Canada,
> > but there is much less evidence that this predation is having a major
> > impact on the recovery of most commercial fish stocks.
> >
> > The findings of the report were not conclusive and many uncertainties
> > were acknowledged in providing realistic predictions. The Panel
> > acknowledged that gaining an understanding of the real impact of seals
> > on the recovery of cod is extremely complex and requires an in-depth
> > understanding of the marine ecosystem as well as additional research.
> > Findings highlighted in the report include:
> >
> > The consumption of cod, and some other commercial species, by seals
> > in Divisions 2J3KL and 4RS3Pn is so large that a reduction in seal
> > predation could reasonably be expected to have a substantial effect on
> > the size of these stocks. However, the extent of this reduction would
> > have to be large in order for an impact to be observed.
> >
> > There is not a simple, straight-line relationship between seal predation
> > and the state of fish populations. The interaction between seals,
> > groundfish and other species is complex and variable. For instance,
> > seals eat cod, but seals also eat other fish that prey on cod. Moreover,
> > other factors such as environmental changes and fishing levels must be
> > considered in trying to determine why cod stocks have not yet recovered.
> >
> > The harp seal population has grown to the highest level recorded.
> > Coupled with the fact that the annual TAC has rarely been taken in full,
> > the panel expects a gradual increase in seal numbers if the current
> > management approach is maintained.
> >
> > The current scientific knowledge is insufficient to determine the impact
> > of a seal cull on cod fisheries in the short, medium or long term. Science
> > and resource managers question the value of a cull in a fishery driven by
> > economic market conditions. More importantly, there is no way of
> > knowing how other predators and prey might respond to a decrease in
> > the seal population.
> >
> > Current estimates of cod consumption by seals vary greatly from less
> > than one per cent to more than 20 per cent of diet, depending on the
> > type of seal researched, the time of year and location of the studies.
> > The panel concluded that more comprehensive research needs to be
> > done to more accurately estimate the amount of cod that seals are
> > consuming.
> > __________________________________________________________
> >
> > I see no scapegoating.
>
> 'Canadian Natural Resources Minister John Efford said many
> claims about the hunt were simply wrong. He argued that the
> seal population was exploding - with an estimated 5.2 million
> harp seals in the North Atlantic at present – and commercial
> fish stocks were vanishing. '
> http://www.indolink.com/displayArticleS.php?id=041304105510

So, let me get this straight. When looking for Canadian Goverment
opinions, one should look to 'indolink' an indian news site (Even
considering they don't provide a quote) as opposed to say . . .
the Canadian Government.

Face it pearl, the Canadian Government has been falsely accused
of 'scapegoating' seals as the cause of the decline in fish stocks.

As far as John Efford goes. Even in the 'indolink' news story, he
didn't accuse the seal of being the cause for the decline in cod
populations. He simply noted that:
1. The seal population has reached a record high (since recording
began).
2. The commercial fish stock is vanishing.
Both of which are true. It's not up to you to put words into his (or
anyone elses) mouth, like you do so often.

[Terry Spragg]

Invective wrote:

> "pearl" wrote in message
> $g73$1@kermit.esat.net...
>
>>Harp seals and Cod
>>Questions and Answers
>
>
> Oh spare us your bullshit. Five millions seals don't have an effect on fish
> stocks? What do you think they eat, seaweed?
> A full grown seal can swallow 30 pounds of fish every day. How much fish do
> you think 150 MILLION pounds a day is?
>
> Oh, but the fish aren't cute, and don't have big brown eyes, and aren' furry
> and cuuuuuuutte.
>
> Bloody phony British animal lovers. You've hunted every single animal
> bigger than a badger to extermination and now *you're* trying to lecture
> *us* on taking care of animals?
>

Bloody right. Or, pawns of EU, which wants competition for their
overfishing eliminated? How many fish left in EU, if they gotta come
dragging over here?

Terry K

[Invective]

"pearl" wrote in message$jge$1@kermit.esat.net...
> "Tim" wrote in message$Gp4.205295@news20.bellglobal.com...
> pearl wrote:

> The massive reaction against the seal killing is mostly because it
> is _extremely_ cruel-,

Bullshit. It's no more cruel than any other kind of hunt, no more cruel than
how we kill horses or cattle or chickens. The reaction is because they're
cuuuuuuuuuuuuutttteeeee.

> and carried out on a massive scale too.

A miniscule fraction of the scale of fish killed, or cattle, or sheep, or
chickens

[Invective]

"pearl" wrote in message$5m3$1@kermit.esat.net...
> "I R Canuck" wrote in message

More than five million seals. Thirty pounds of fish per seal per day. Do the
math.