fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboa

Harken Ronstan · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
triangle course these days?

I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.

Archived from group: alt>sailing

MM9995 · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

Because it had a tunneled hull the M-20 SCOW was considered the fastest. I
found the following at: http://www.m20scow.com/

The M-20 was designed in 1963 by Buddy and Harry Melges of Zenda, WI. The
M-20 is the only scow design with a tunneled hull and the original scow with
a high aspect rig. The M-20 is an extremely fast boat that keeps it's two
person crew on their toes. The M-20 carries 175 square feet of sail in it's
main and jib, plus a 250 square foot spinnaker for downwind speed. The
flexible and adjustable rig allows for crew weights of 270 to 450 pounds.
The boat is typically raced by two person teams including coed, two men or
two women. There are currently active fleets in Colorado, Indiana, Michigan,
Minnesota, New York, Oklahoma, Texas, Wisconsin, and also in Ontario,
Canada.

The M-20 is a great all around boat with active fleets, a new builder and a
healthy used boat market. Start a fleet in your area!

Order Your New M20 Today for less than $14,000! E-mail Scowbuilders at
scowbuilders@hotmail.com for more details!

"Harken Ronstan" wrote in message@posting.google.com...
> What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
> triangle course these days?
>
> I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
> Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
> guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.

Andy Champ · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 89

Harken Ronstan wrote:
> What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
> triangle course these days?
>
> I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
> Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
> guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.

According to the RYA, the 49er's yardstick of 747 is 73 faster than the
next boat - the RS800. I14 is 864, and 505 a mere 902. They quote 855
for the Projection 762 (keelboat). They've also got 689 for the Dart
Hawk cat. No good number for the 18ft skiff, but Datchet Water reckon
it is about 700.

I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.

Andy.

Steven J. Ross · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

Hello, If you check the Portsmith handicap numbers. The A-Scow smokes all
other centerboard monohulls including the M-20. I've seen a picture of one
pulling a water skier.

Best Wishes, Steve Ross

http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/tables03/tables03cb.htm

"Harken Ronstan" wrote in message@posting.google.com...
> What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
> triangle course these days?
>
> I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
> Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
> guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.

Ray Kuntz · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

Andy,
Just curious, what experience do you base your statement "sailboards
can't keep up on a proper course, they are damn fast on a reach and not
in any other direction". The consensus in windsurfing seems to be that
only Americas Cup boats are competitive with modern Windsurfer "Formula"
class hulls on upwind/downwind downwind courses and then primarily on
the upwind legs.
Ray

Andy Champ wrote:
>
> Harken Ronstan wrote:
>
>> What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
>> triangle course these days?
>>
>> I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
>> Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
>> guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.
>
>
> According to the RYA, the 49er's yardstick of 747 is 73 faster than the
> next boat - the RS800. I14 is 864, and 505 a mere 902. They quote 855
> for the Projection 762 (keelboat). They've also got 689 for the Dart
> Hawk cat. No good number for the 18ft skiff, but Datchet Water reckon
> it is about 700.
>
> I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
> are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.
>
> Andy.
>

brian · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

> I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
> are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.
>
> Andy.

Andy,
there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
followed by an 18ft skiff.

Ronstan Bridge to Bridge, SF, CA

The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
upwind mark.
I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
Biscyane Bay.
420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
the downwind.

AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. >10knots the
windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.

Re: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboard)?
My money would be on the 18ft skiff.

Prev1 · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

"Steven J. Ross" wrote in message news:...
> Hello, If you check the Portsmith handicap numbers. The A-Scow smokes all
> other centerboard monohulls including the M-20. I've seen a picture of one
> pulling a water skier.
>
> Best Wishes, Steve Ross
>
> http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/tables03/tables03cb.htm
>
> "Harken Ronstan" wrote in message
> @posting.google.com...
> > What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
> > triangle course these days?
> >
> > I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
> > Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
> > guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.

Funny that the M-20 looks like a Fireball, which I still own. I
sailed it for 10 years including with world record holders in the
Fireball class. It was fast and fun, but certainly not compared to
windsurfing! It was intersting to see that it's rating was in low
80's, which is respectable. This was the dingly class of are yacht
clubs a while back. The problem was they turned out to be too much
boat for the Jr's and the they turtled and got stuck in the mud. I
did manage to drink excessive amounts of beer, sail solo with all
three sails up and go like hell. Thanks for the memories.

Harken Ronstan · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

I spent may years racing in the midwest (Minnetonka YC) I never
considered the M20 to be a fast boat. It seems to have everything for
high performance but when the wind starts cranking they are the first
to dump or nose dive. Around 1986 or so Melges was testing a super
scow based on the M20, I saw one a Geneva YC, it had an asym spin,
bigger rudders, bow spirt and maybe some other stuff behind the
scenes. At least I though it was a M20, I notice there is a M16 based
version http://www.boatshow.com/MelgesSuperScow16.html so maybe I was
wrong.
No doubt about it, the Ascow is a beast, it is nice to see they have
been more progressive with design changes in the past 10 or so years,
too bad they haven't gone back to trapezes. In the 70's? some carried
four on the wire, I would guess with the sideboards this is a bit
dangerous.
As for windsurfers, the reason I didn't include them is that even old
gear such as a Lechner, which is full displacement hull, will smoke
most anything on most points of sail, especially upwind.

Southport Yacht Club · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

According to the Australian Yachting Federation Special Regulations, the
definition of a "Monohull" is, "A hull in which the hull depth in any
section does not decrease towards the centre-line. All other boats are
considered to be Multihulls".

I am not intimately familiar with the M20, but from what I have read, it
sounds like it would (according to this definition) definitely be
categorised as a multihull.

Nonetheless, a very speedy looking boat indeed.

"MM9995" wrote in message$cS2.3257@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
> Because it had a tunneled hull the M-20 SCOW was considered the fastest. I
> found the following at: http://www.m20scow.com/
>
> The M-20 was designed in 1963 by Buddy and Harry Melges of Zenda, WI. The
> M-20 is the only scow design with a tunneled hull and the original scow
with
> a high aspect rig. The M-20 is an extremely fast boat that keeps it's two
> person crew on their toes. The M-20 carries 175 square feet of sail in
it's
> main and jib, plus a 250 square foot spinnaker for downwind speed. The
> flexible and adjustable rig allows for crew weights of 270 to 450 pounds.
> The boat is typically raced by two person teams including coed, two men or
> two women. There are currently active fleets in Colorado, Indiana,
Michigan,
> Minnesota, New York, Oklahoma, Texas, Wisconsin, and also in Ontario,
> Canada.
>
> The M-20 is a great all around boat with active fleets, a new builder and
a
> healthy used boat market. Start a fleet in your area!
>
> Order Your New M20 Today for less than $14,000! E-mail Scowbuilders at
> scowbuilders@hotmail.com for more details!
>
>
>
>
>
> "Harken Ronstan" wrote in message
> @posting.google.com...
> > What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
> > triangle course these days?
> >
> > I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
> > Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
> > guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.
>
>

Andy Champ · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 89

Ray Kuntz wrote:
> Andy,
> Just curious, what experience do you base your statement "sailboards
> can't keep up on a proper course, they are damn fast on a reach and not
> in any other direction". The consensus in windsurfing seems to be that
> only Americas Cup boats are competitive with modern Windsurfer "Formula"
> class hulls on upwind/downwind downwind courses and then primarily on
> the upwind legs.
> Ray
>

Hmmm I seem to have stirred this one up. Apart from "popular opinion"
and the fact that all the ones I've raced against don't seem any quicker
around the course than my Solo (UK PY=1155, a tad slower than a Laser)
there's the US Sailing PY tables:

WINDSURFER CLASSES CLASS D-PN WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
CODE 0-1 2-3 4 5-9

Div II (SA = < 6m2) SB-2 92.6 98.4 94.6 88.4 (85.1)
Div IIB (SA = 6-7m2) SB-2B 89.7 96.3 92.6 83.8 (82.0)
Div IIC (SA = > 7m2) SB-2C 86.7 84.4 87.3

That puts the fastest boards about the same as a 470. faster than I
thought, but still not exactly world shattering.

That race in San Francisco? Well, it's downwind.....

Andy

Juri Munkki · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

In article Andy Champ writes:
>WINDSURFER CLASSES CLASS D-PN WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
> CODE 0-1 2-3 4 5-9
>
>Div II (SA = < 6m2) SB-2 92.6 98.4 94.6 88.4 (85.1)
>Div IIB (SA = 6-7m2) SB-2B 89.7 96.3 92.6 83.8 (82.0)
>Div IIC (SA = > 7m2) SB-2C 86.7 84.4 87.3
>
>That puts the fastest boards about the same as a 470. faster than I
>thought, but still not exactly world shattering.

Div II sailboards are from the early 1980s. Formula Windsurfing boards
can run circles around those, as long as there's enough wind, which
means about 8 knots minimum.

I'm not saying that they're the fastest thing out there of all
sailing vessels for a course...I'm just stating that the table
you have quoted is antiquated.

Formula boards go upwind pretty well. Not the best in terms of angle,
but very good speed, so the VMG is probably respectable. Local racers
seem to think that 49ers would be better in light winds, but formula
boards could win in medium to high winds. Even in medium to light
winds, it's very close and skill plays a huge part.

It's nice to see that a widely crossposted thread like this hasn't
ended up as a flame war - yet.

--
Juri Munkki jmunkki@iki.fi What you see isn't all you get.
http://www.iki.fi/jmunkki Windsurfing: Faster than the wind.

Charles Ivey · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

You are right Juri, the yachting world still thinks windsurfers are all 12
feet long and have retractable center boards with smallish sails like 7.4
and 6 m2. I like both sailing worlds and sail in both. Until the 70 cm
fins and formula boards came along, beating any performance yacht around a
course was almost impossible. Now for almost any sailboat to beat a Formula
board around a course would require the winds to be under about 9 knots,
provided the board is sailed by a top racer of course.

On another point, for all out fun and feel for speed, the now old Flying
Dutchman was a fun boat and plenty lively, but perhaps not in today's league
of high performance boats. Still, the FD in high winds was quite a thrill.
And as to the reference to sailboats pulling water skiers, there are more
than a few that can do that including a venerable old Mallory and Adams Cup
boat called the Flying Scot. I mention the Scot because these were raced
against M20's from time to time and I remember one collision. It seems the
Scot is like a flying tank (planes easily but is a big hull) and the M20 is
more like a china plate. These two boats came to together on a plane and
the Scot T-boned the M20, crushing it like an egg. That may be the only way
a Formula board (when powered up) would lose to a sailboat. No doubt our
Formula boards are the king of egg shells.

CI

"Juri Munkki" wrote in message$i8$1@epityr.hut.fi...
> In article Andy Champ
writes:
> >WINDSURFER CLASSES CLASS D-PN WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
> > CODE 0-1 2-3 4 5-9
> >
> >Div II (SA = < 6m2) SB-2 92.6 98.4 94.6 88.4 (85.1)
> >Div IIB (SA = 6-7m2) SB-2B 89.7 96.3 92.6 83.8 (82.0)
> >Div IIC (SA = > 7m2) SB-2C 86.7 84.4 87.3
> >
> >That puts the fastest boards about the same as a 470. faster than I
> >thought, but still not exactly world shattering.
>
> Div II sailboards are from the early 1980s. Formula Windsurfing boards
> can run circles around those, as long as there's enough wind, which
> means about 8 knots minimum.
>
> I'm not saying that they're the fastest thing out there of all
> sailing vessels for a course...I'm just stating that the table
> you have quoted is antiquated.
>
> Formula boards go upwind pretty well. Not the best in terms of angle,
> but very good speed, so the VMG is probably respectable. Local racers
> seem to think that 49ers would be better in light winds, but formula
> boards could win in medium to high winds. Even in medium to light
> winds, it's very close and skill plays a huge part.
>
> It's nice to see that a widely crossposted thread like this hasn't
> ended up as a flame war - yet.
>
> --
> Juri Munkki jmunkki@iki.fi What you see isn't all you get.
> http://www.iki.fi/jmunkki Windsurfing: Faster than the wind.

"Jack \ · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

Both Jeff Feehan and I have reported on chasing keelboats around a course.
While it is true that either a longboard or a Formula board can have better
VMG on any point of sail than pretty much any monohull, those favorable
conditions often don't last for the whole course. It is not top speed that
wins the race, it is the average speed, and that is strongly affected by
good sailing as well has having the right equipment for the job. I feel
that I actually do better against the speedy dingys than the big, race
oriented and well sailed keel boats. Their VMG upwind can be very
impressive. If there is good wind, of course I am faster downwind, but the
trick is to stay close enough on the upwind legs.

Jack (Sarasota)

"Charles Ivey" wrote in message$HQ.23100@okepread02...
> You are right Juri, the yachting world still thinks windsurfers are all 12
> feet long and have retractable center boards with smallish sails like 7.4
> and 6 m2. I like both sailing worlds and sail in both. Until the 70 cm
> fins and formula boards came along, beating any performance yacht around a
> course was almost impossible. Now for almost any sailboat to beat a
Formula
> board around a course would require the winds to be under about 9 knots,
> provided the board is sailed by a top racer of course.
>
> On another point, for all out fun and feel for speed, the now old Flying
> Dutchman was a fun boat and plenty lively, but perhaps not in today's
league
> of high performance boats. Still, the FD in high winds was quite a
thrill.
> And as to the reference to sailboats pulling water skiers, there are more
> than a few that can do that including a venerable old Mallory and Adams
Cup
> boat called the Flying Scot. I mention the Scot because these were raced
> against M20's from time to time and I remember one collision. It seems
the
> Scot is like a flying tank (planes easily but is a big hull) and the M20
is
> more like a china plate. These two boats came to together on a plane and
> the Scot T-boned the M20, crushing it like an egg. That may be the only
way
> a Formula board (when powered up) would lose to a sailboat. No doubt our
> Formula boards are the king of egg shells.
>
> CI
>
> "Juri Munkki" wrote in message
> $i8$1@epityr.hut.fi...
> > In article Andy Champ
> writes:
> > >WINDSURFER CLASSES CLASS D-PN WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
> > > CODE 0-1 2-3 4 5-9
> > >
> > >Div II (SA = < 6m2) SB-2 92.6 98.4 94.6 88.4 (85.1)
> > >Div IIB (SA = 6-7m2) SB-2B 89.7 96.3 92.6 83.8 (82.0)
> > >Div IIC (SA = > 7m2) SB-2C 86.7 84.4 87.3
> > >
> > >That puts the fastest boards about the same as a 470. faster than I
> > >thought, but still not exactly world shattering.
> >
> > Div II sailboards are from the early 1980s. Formula Windsurfing boards
> > can run circles around those, as long as there's enough wind, which
> > means about 8 knots minimum.
> >
> > I'm not saying that they're the fastest thing out there of all
> > sailing vessels for a course...I'm just stating that the table
> > you have quoted is antiquated.
> >
> > Formula boards go upwind pretty well. Not the best in terms of angle,
> > but very good speed, so the VMG is probably respectable. Local racers
> > seem to think that 49ers would be better in light winds, but formula
> > boards could win in medium to high winds. Even in medium to light
> > winds, it's very close and skill plays a huge part.
> >
> > It's nice to see that a widely crossposted thread like this hasn't
> > ended up as a flame war - yet.
> >
> > --
> > Juri Munkki jmunkki@iki.fi What you see isn't all you get.
> > http://www.iki.fi/jmunkki Windsurfing: Faster than the wind.
>
>

jeff feehan · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 12

jack is right, i have had very little luck going upwind against keelboats
with formula gear on long island sound over long distances. yes, i can
beat them upwind over short distances - say a few hundred meters - when
the wind is up. but i have never beaten them over the full length of say
a 2-3 km beat. i belive this is mostly because of the relatively
light wind on long island sound in the summer when the keelboats are out
racing.

formula sailors from windy places, like san francisco, regularly report
beating keelboats around the full length of windward-leeward courses.
a figure of 8kts was quoted in this thread as the crossover windspeed
where formula boards can beat keelboats. i would put the figure higher,
maybe at an average windspeed of 12-14 kts, with no lulls below about
10kts. this is to beat a good boat that is well sailed, not a cruising
tub with nobody on the rail. these conditions are incredibly rare on
summer weekends on long island sound - about the only time there are
boats out racing for me to tune against. the caveat is that i don't
have a 12.5 m^2 sail, my biggest is an 11.0. and, i don't get to race
formula very much, so my skills may be lacking. on the other hand,
i do own and race a variety of dinghys and keelboats, so i understand
the basics of racing upwind.

jeff feehan

Jack (Sarasota) wrote:
> Both Jeff Feehan and I have reported on chasing keelboats around a course.
> While it is true that either a longboard or a Formula board can have better
> VMG on any point of sail than pretty much any monohull, those favorable
> conditions often don't last for the whole course. It is not top speed that
> wins the race, it is the average speed, and that is strongly affected by
> good sailing as well has having the right equipment for the job. I feel
> that I actually do better against the speedy dingys than the big, race
> oriented and well sailed keel boats. Their VMG upwind can be very
> impressive. If there is good wind, of course I am faster downwind, but the
> trick is to stay close enough on the upwind legs.
>
> Jack (Sarasota)
>
> "Charles Ivey" wrote in message
> $HQ.23100@okepread02...
>
>>You are right Juri, the yachting world still thinks windsurfers are all 12
>>feet long and have retractable center boards with smallish sails like 7.4
>>and 6 m2. I like both sailing worlds and sail in both. Until the 70 cm
>>fins and formula boards came along, beating any performance yacht around a
>>course was almost impossible. Now for almost any sailboat to beat a
>
> Formula
>
>>board around a course would require the winds to be under about 9 knots,
>>provided the board is sailed by a top racer of course.
>>
>>On another point, for all out fun and feel for speed, the now old Flying
>>Dutchman was a fun boat and plenty lively, but perhaps not in today's
>
> league
>
>>of high performance boats. Still, the FD in high winds was quite a
>
> thrill.
>
>>And as to the reference to sailboats pulling water skiers, there are more
>>than a few that can do that including a venerable old Mallory and Adams
>
> Cup
>
>>boat called the Flying Scot. I mention the Scot because these were raced
>>against M20's from time to time and I remember one collision. It seems
>
> the
>
>>Scot is like a flying tank (planes easily but is a big hull) and the M20
>
> is
>
>>more like a china plate. These two boats came to together on a plane and
>>the Scot T-boned the M20, crushing it like an egg. That may be the only
>
> way
>
>>a Formula board (when powered up) would lose to a sailboat. No doubt our
>>Formula boards are the king of egg shells.
>>
>>CI
>>
>>"Juri Munkki" wrote in message
>>$i8$1@epityr.hut.fi...
>>
>>>In article Andy Champ
>>
>> writes:
>>
>>>>WINDSURFER CLASSES CLASS D-PN WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
>>>> CODE 0-1 2-3 4 5-9
>>>>
>>>>Div II (SA = < 6m2) SB-2 92.6 98.4 94.6 88.4 (85.1)
>>>>Div IIB (SA = 6-7m2) SB-2B 89.7 96.3 92.6 83.8 (82.0)
>>>>Div IIC (SA = > 7m2) SB-2C 86.7 84.4 87.3
>>>>
>>>>That puts the fastest boards about the same as a 470. faster than I
>>>>thought, but still not exactly world shattering.
>>>
>>>Div II sailboards are from the early 1980s. Formula Windsurfing boards
>>>can run circles around those, as long as there's enough wind, which
>>>means about 8 knots minimum.
>>>
>>>I'm not saying that they're the fastest thing out there of all
>>>sailing vessels for a course...I'm just stating that the table
>>>you have quoted is antiquated.
>>>
>>>Formula boards go upwind pretty well. Not the best in terms of angle,
>>>but very good speed, so the VMG is probably respectable. Local racers
>>>seem to think that 49ers would be better in light winds, but formula
>>>boards could win in medium to high winds. Even in medium to light
>>>winds, it's very close and skill plays a huge part.
>>>
>>>It's nice to see that a widely crossposted thread like this hasn't
>>>ended up as a flame war - yet.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Juri Munkki jmunkki@iki.fi What you see isn't all you get.
>>>http://www.iki.fi/jmunkki Windsurfing: Faster than the wind.
>>
>>
>
>

Andy Champ · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 89

Juri Munkki wrote:
> I'm not saying that they're the fastest thing out there of all
> sailing vessels for a course...I'm just stating that the table
> you have quoted is antiquated.
>
Best table I could find. There's nothing on the RYA, and that is US
sailing's entire sailboard table. If you have something more recent I;m
sure we'd all like to see it!

I'm not surprised that a 2000-date board can beat my boat BTW - it was
designed in 1950-something. I'm quite aware that what I am doing is the
marine equivalent of racing a Norton...

Andy.

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