Best use of GPS in rowing so far?

James Elder · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 11

Seen on the Tideway yesterday:

A crew with a rather snazzy Garmin model that was loaded with charting
software (showing the river depth according to the most recent
charts).

Cox was able to review his course after the outing and check where he
had steered relative to the deep water.

Assuming the chart data are accurate (and I have a vague memory that
the tideway was remapped fairly recently?) this strikes me as an
extremely useful tool for coxes. Wonder if Oxford and Cambridge are
using it?

Archived from group: rec>sport>rowing

Alistair Potts · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 50

Does fastest water always follow deepest point? I mean absolutely exactly?
The complexities of tide, shoals and bends may suggest not.

Also, fastest water is not always fastest course - consider the extreme case
of a tight bend. On the Thames the 1/10th of a knot you might lose by being
two widths further to the outside of a bend to catch the deepest water might
be compensated for by the shorter course.

Just food for thought. I like the idea though.

AJP

--
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http://www.partyark.co.uk

"James Elder" wrote in message @60g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> Seen on the Tideway yesterday:
>
> A crew with a rather snazzy Garmin model that was loaded with charting
> software (showing the river depth according to the most recent
> charts).
>
> Cox was able to review his course after the outing and check where he
> had steered relative to the deep water.
>
> Assuming the chart data are accurate (and I have a vague memory that
> the tideway was remapped fairly recently?) this strikes me as an
> extremely useful tool for coxes. Wonder if Oxford and Cambridge are
> using it?

A Browne · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

James Elder said the following on 18/02/2008 14:03:
> Seen on the Tideway yesterday:
>
> A crew with a rather snazzy Garmin model that was loaded with charting
> software (showing the river depth according to the most recent
> charts).
>
> Cox was able to review his course after the outing and check where he
> had steered relative to the deep water.
>
> Assuming the chart data are accurate (and I have a vague memory that
> the tideway was remapped fairly recently?) this strikes me as an
> extremely useful tool for coxes. Wonder if Oxford and Cambridge are
> using it?

OK for training, but not allowed when racing - under SARA, ARA or FISA
rules - I believe (but haven't checked).

Alistair

SwissSculler · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 12

How about this:

Try different "routes" on a given day and tide. Start GPS and
SpeedCoach at the same time, row until your landbased distance has
been reached (GPS) or fix point on shore (typical for head races).
Look for the following:

AGAINST current

- SpC will display more meters than GPS, however, the route that
showed the least difference was the "fastest", facing the least amount
of current.

WITH current

- SpC will display less meters than GPS, however, the more difference
between the two, the better current-wise.

However, keep in mind:

- if you row "around" a current etc. you will also have to row
FARTHER, so I would recommend to compare the relative speed over the
fixed points as well. If you keep track with the SpeedCoach you will
be able to analyze your route regardless of how fast you rowed (more
or less..).

David Biddulph · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 57

"A Browne" wrote in message $XI.1425@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> James Elder said the following on 18/02/2008 14:03:
>> Seen on the Tideway yesterday:
>>
>> A crew with a rather snazzy Garmin model that was loaded with charting
>> software (showing the river depth according to the most recent
>> charts).
>>
>> Cox was able to review his course after the outing and check where he
>> had steered relative to the deep water.
>>
>> Assuming the chart data are accurate (and I have a vague memory that
>> the tideway was remapped fairly recently?) this strikes me as an
>> extremely useful tool for coxes. Wonder if Oxford and Cambridge are
>> using it?
>
> OK for training, but not allowed when racing - under SARA, ARA or FISA
> rules - I believe (but haven't checked).

Interesting question. Let's start with ARA rules. 2-5-3 and 2-5-9 are
presumably the relevant ones, but they don't apply to head races. Perhaps a
topic for discussion by the Rules of Racing Sub-Committee?
--
David Biddulph

SwissSculler · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 12

In the US for example any regatta committee can make exceptions to the
rules as long as they don't interfere with safety etc.

At Worlds in Munich there were boats racing with illegal equipment.
Most laughable the Aussies who even had the antennas of their
superexpensive Rover system mounted on the stern decks.

The Swiss eight could have made the Olympic qualification would they
have protested, now that the Russians are out... (although I
personally object such behavior, you don't want to protest your way to
the Olympics unless there was unfair advantage).

And there were others. Always love to see Cop showing off his gigantic
GPS Polar toy......beeeeeeeeep, you just got disqualified, sorry, nice
row though...

The rules are a nuisance and outdated, luckily there are no overeager
umpires enforcing them, that would really ridicule the sport. Almost
as bad as having to watch coxed pairs rather than M4+.

Carl Douglas · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 93

SwissSculler wrote:
> In the US for example any regatta committee can make exceptions to the
> rules as long as they don't interfere with safety etc.
>
> At Worlds in Munich there were boats racing with illegal equipment.
> Most laughable the Aussies who even had the antennas of their
> superexpensive Rover system mounted on the stern decks.
>
> The Swiss eight could have made the Olympic qualification would they
> have protested, now that the Russians are out... (although I
> personally object such behavior, you don't want to protest your way to
> the Olympics unless there was unfair advantage).
>
> And there were others. Always love to see Cop showing off his gigantic
> GPS Polar toy......beeeeeeeeep, you just got disqualified, sorry, nice
> row though...
>
> The rules are a nuisance and outdated, luckily there are no overeager
> umpires enforcing them, that would really ridicule the sport. Almost
> as bad as having to watch coxed pairs rather than M4+.

For interfering idiocy, try this:

Our logo is a very small (much less than FISA's maximum area) lozenge
which has always incorporated our name (in very small lettering). At
the Euro Champs in Poznan, one of our boats was attacked by these fools:
"That logo is illegal" they said & demanded its removal. How did that
fatuous harrasment help that competitor to do of their best, & of what
possible relevance was it to the competition? Similarly, we've had such
jobsworths covering over our minute maker's logo on our riggers at a
number of FISA events. Others have even had seats taped over (& who
ever gets to read the name on a seat, except after it has all gone
horribly wrong?).

Yet a well-known sculler has raced at FISA events (including world
champs) with the boat-builder's name, written as a large logo, attached
to each rigger. That is in contravention of the same rules under which
our (smaller) logos were obliterated. Meanwhile, other blatantly
advertising items (you'll know what I mean, Frank) are ignored.

Rowers do want to know who is using what - it's part of the interest in
the sport, as in any other. So how does such pointless interference,
apart from finding jobs for ever more officials, enhance our sport?

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

ACCBrowne · Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 1

On Feb 18, 8:12 pm, "David Biddulph"
wrote:
> "A Browne" wrote in message
>
> $XI.1425@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>
>
>
> > James Elder said the following on 18/02/2008 14:03:
> >> Seen on the Tideway yesterday:
>
> >> A crew with a rather snazzy Garmin model that was loaded with charting
> >> software (showing the river depth according to the most recent
> >> charts).
>
> >> Cox was able to review his course after the outing and check where he
> >> had steered relative to the deep water.
>
> >> Assuming the chart data are accurate (and I have a vague memory that
> >> the tideway was remapped fairly recently?) this strikes me as an
> >> extremely useful tool for coxes. Wonder if Oxford and Cambridge are
> >> using it?
>
> > OK for training, but not allowed when racing - under SARA, ARA or FISA
> > rules - I believe (but haven't checked).
>
> Interesting question. Let's start with ARA rules. 2-5-3 and 2-5-9 are
> presumably the relevant ones, but they don't apply to head races. Perhaps a
> topic for discussion by the Rules of Racing Sub-Committee?
> --
> David Biddulph

Confess I still haven't checked, but I was thinking of the general
prohibition of 'external assistance'.
I had forgotten that head races were now a free-for-all under the ARA.
The fact that the rule does apply to heads has been a hot topic up
here from time to time in recent years.

Alistair

anatolebeams · Joined: 15 Nov 2007 Posts: 14

Interesting gizmo - but I have my doubts that it is that much better
than a good cox with local knowledge. Scullers out on the tideway
regularly can get a pretty good idea of how the water flows,
particularly where the eddies and turbulent water is, that can throw
the run of a boat. As a dynamic system it is all on the change over
short periods of time and I have yet to see a chart that looks
accurate. The last year has seen a lot of movement of shingle and an
almost complete stripping of mud fines from the upper tideway.

As a bit of a self-confessed gizmo fiend I have a Garmin Edge training
GPS which we use on the river to measure times & distances. Great for
repeat running courses and you can work against yourself on a previous
run - like on the Concept II Model D. However, as a GPS it is pretty
hopeless. When we get back and download the information to plot our
course on a map or Google Earth, the positional accuracy for a course
is only just sufficient to keep you in the river, let alone whether
you are following precisely the right course (no good for spotting
infractions of the navigational guidelines).

Anatole

Rob Collings · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 19

On 19 Feb, 14:32, "AnatoleBe...@googlemail.com"
wrote:
> However, as a GPS it is pretty
> hopeless. When we get back and download the information to plot our
> course on a map or Google Earth, the positional accuracy for a course
> is only just sufficient to keep you in the river, let alone whether
> you are following precisely the right course (no good for spotting
> infractions of the navigational guidelines).

That sort of GPS is probably going to give you something like 10-20m
positional accuracy with a good lock and there aren't all that many
ways of improving it. Enough to put you in the vicinity of the river,
although towards the poorer end of the range it could conceivably
place us as being in the pub instead Smile

It could also be down to your maps - some of the old google maps
didn't used to line up too well, even between their own map and
imagery. Either way, I don't really see GPS being useable like this
until we get Galileo or GPS III.

Rob.

SwissSculler · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 12

> As a bit of a self-confessed gizmo fiend I have a Garmin Edge training
> GPS which we use on the river to measure times & distances. Great for
> repeat running courses and you can work against yourself on a previous
> run - like on the Concept II Model D.

How do you account for the current up and down, as well as changes in
the same direction. Even with minimal current that is difficult to see
by eye, you will find several boat lengths difference on as short as
1,000 metres.

Don't be fooled on the quality of data, just because it's easy to
collect.

anatolebeams · Joined: 15 Nov 2007 Posts: 14

You take the results as they stand. With the inaccuracies of the GPS,
plus as you state, differences in tide, current, wind etc any measured
change in performance is only reliable if it can be repeated regularly
in similar conditions. With the cadence sensor connected to pick up
stroke rate, it is able to give you a speed & stroke / distance graph,
which does give you an idea of how your boat speed is affected by
changes in external conditions. On the Boston Marathon last year, we
had a strong southerly, which cut our boat speed by up to a third
depending on whether the river course was into wind or not. So it's a
useful training aid - and it can compare different boats on the same
course running one after another (simulating race timing conditions).

Anatole

SwissSculler · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 12

Have you ever tried to measure speed through the water to see how you
really do, like a SpeedCoach with impeller. Looking at the variances
you state, why even bother using anything - it's nothing but a coin
toss really...

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