Wolves

Larry L · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 213

I see wolves are to be removed from the endangered species list

http://tinyurl.com/28cwx5

Which brings up a questions I've had a few times when nobody was near to
ask. Why haven't I ever seen any of the typical warnings in park
handouts and trailhead signs that are commmon for bears, bison, even elk
..... for wolves?

I remember one time at Slough creek when the local pack was playing/resting
on a hillside above where I was fishing. They were a long distance away,
but it was still clear I wouldn't want to have them mad at me ... big teeth

Are wolves so man-shy they aren't a danger? or why do they escape being
pointed out in the warning literature? I once fished while parked at
exactly the same spot and when I returned to my truck a brand new set of
bear warning signs was posted around the parking lot. I noticed a ranger
up the road and asked about the situation and was told that a bear had
charged two anglers " a couple hours ago" near where I had been. It
seems odd that bears warrant two hour response time and wolves get no
mention whatever ?? !!

Archived from group: rec>outdoors>fishing>fly

Chip Thomas · Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 4

Larry L wrote:
> I see wolves are to be removed from the endangered species list
>
> http://tinyurl.com/28cwx5
>

Do you think its overdue?

>
> Which brings up a questions I've had a few times when nobody was near to
> ask. Why haven't I ever seen any of the typical warnings in park
> handouts and trailhead signs that are commmon for bears, bison, even elk
> .... for wolves?

Its very rare that wolves attack humans (very few documented attacks).
Even in the recent wolf pack encounters in Alaska (Eagle River and
Anchorage - 4 known packs in that area) the wolves have been after pets.
They mostly go after dogs, even on Emlendorf AFB, even on leashes.

>
> I remember one time at Slough creek when the local pack was playing/resting
> on a hillside above where I was fishing. They were a long distance away,
> but it was still clear I wouldn't want to have them mad at me ... big teeth
>
>
> Are wolves so man-shy they aren't a danger? or why do they escape being
> pointed out in the warning literature? I once fished while parked at
> exactly the same spot and when I returned to my truck a brand new set of
> bear warning signs was posted around the parking lot. I noticed a ranger
> up the road and asked about the situation and was told that a bear had
> charged two anglers " a couple hours ago" near where I had been. It
> seems odd that bears warrant two hour response time and wolves get no
> mention whatever ?? !!

That's because bears will attack man (especially when around their
fishing grounds) while wolves don't.

Chip

Larry L · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 213

"Chip Thomas" wrote

>
> Do you think its overdue?
>
>>

No ... I don't .... but then I don't know much about the overall situation.

Larry L ( Lack of knowledge seldom keeps me from forming opinions Smile

Bob Weinberger · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 23

"Larry L" wrote in message $MJ6.102470@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>I see wolves are to be removed from the endangered species list
>
> http://tinyurl.com/28cwx5
>
>
> Which brings up a questions I've had a few times when nobody was near to
> ask. Why haven't I ever seen any of the typical warnings in park
> handouts and trailhead signs that are commmon for bears, bison, even elk
> .... for wolves?
snip
Because bears (Griz if suddenly encroached upon and Blacks and Griz that
have come to associate humans with food) will and have hurt/killed people on
more than a few occaisions, the same goes for Bison and elk especially
during the rut and when dumbasses think it would be cute to get a picture of
hubby or little Johnny next to or even on the animal.

The same cannot be said for wolves. Of the few documented cases in North
America where wolves have killed (2 that I am aware of) or hurt human
beings, I believe all but one involved captive wolves rather than those in
the wild. The one involved a pack of wolves that had become dependant on
the dump of remote Artic (mining? drilling?) operation, for their winter
food. The crew members even occaisionally threw food to the wolves. The man
killed and partially eaten was drunk and out alone at night near the dump.
There are a few anecdotal unducumented reports of other wolf "incidents"
but even those are few and far between.

Even with the protections that wolves have in the lower 48, a few are killed
on purpose by man every year (both legally and illegally), and wolves being
the smart and social critters that they are have learned to keep their
distance from humans here.

Bob Weinberger

Chip Thomas · Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 4

Larry L wrote:
> "Chip Thomas" wrote
>
>> Do you think its overdue?
>>
>
>
> No ... I don't .... but then I don't know much about the overall situation.
>
> Larry L ( Lack of knowledge seldom keeps me from forming opinions Smile

>
>

Lots of info available on wolves in Alaska. Google is your friend. 8^)

There was an article in the ADN recently listing many of the recent
encounters around Anchorage. It also had some info from the ADF&G with
their observations and opinions.

Wolfgang · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 325

"Bob Weinberger" wrote in message $s33.18961@trndny06...
>
> "Larry L" wrote in message
> $MJ6.102470@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>I see wolves are to be removed from the endangered species list
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/28cwx5
>>
>>
>> Which brings up a questions I've had a few times when nobody was near to
>> ask. Why haven't I ever seen any of the typical warnings in park
>> handouts and trailhead signs that are commmon for bears, bison, even elk
>> .... for wolves?
> snip
> Because bears (Griz if suddenly encroached upon and Blacks and Griz that
> have come to associate humans with food) will and have hurt/killed people
> on more than a few occaisions, the same goes for Bison and elk especially
> during the rut and when dumbasses think it would be cute to get a picture
> of hubby or little Johnny next to or even on the animal.
>
> The same cannot be said for wolves. Of the few documented cases in North
> America where wolves have killed (2 that I am aware of) or hurt human
> beings, I believe all but one involved captive wolves rather than those in
> the wild. The one involved a pack of wolves that had become dependant on
> the dump of remote Artic (mining? drilling?) operation, for their winter
> food. The crew members even occaisionally threw food to the wolves. The
> man killed and partially eaten was drunk and out alone at night near the
> dump. There are a few anecdotal unducumented reports of other wolf
> "incidents" but even those are few and far between.
>
> Even with the protections that wolves have in the lower 48, a few are
> killed on purpose by man every year (both legally and illegally), and
> wolves being the smart and social critters that they are have learned to
> keep their distance from humans here.

Not always quite so distant as was once the case and I had supposed still
was. Less than two weeks ago Becky and I were chatting with a couple of
staff members at the Schlitz Audubon Center along the Lake Michigan shore a
few miles north of the city of Milwaukee and well within the urban
metroplex. We had encountered a couple of coyotes (common enough these days
even within the city proper) and were lucky enough to get some decent good
photos even in the fading twilight. While showing off the photos to the
staff, we were told that there had been quite a few recent sightings of
wolves, or at least a wolf, within a couple of miles of the center. Could'a
knocked me over with a fender! Wolves? In Milwaukee? No doubt about
it......some of the sightings were reported by very reliable witnesses. A
year and a half ago, a black bear managed to wander into Wauwatosa, no more
than a mile from where I now sit. Ordinarily, bears do not come within a
hundred miles of year, and only very few are even that close. This one
probably came down largely through green belt along the Milwaukee River, at
least for the last fifty miles or so. No telling where it started out. I
don't know where it ended up either, after it was darted in a tree.

It seems a lot of historically shy animals are becoming increasingly
habituated to human presence.....almost certainly a result of shrinking
habitat away from human encroachment. Deer are plentiful in Milwaukee
county, virtually all of which is highly developed.....some time this week,
I believe, sharpshooters are scheduled to thin the heard in the Havenswood
State Forest (the only urban state forest in all of Wisconsin, if I recall
correctly). Wild turkeys can frequently be seen in some of the outlying
parks and along the parkways that border the various streams flowing into
the city. There are beavers less three blocks from the house Becky and I
recently shared a house, within the city limits. Her dog got bitten by a
coyote less than a mile from there, also within the city. Peregrine falcons
nest on a bank building, the tallest building in the city.....or did
recently, I haven't heard much about them in the past couple of years. They
most certainly nest in boxes at several power plants in the area. Pictures
of nest boxes can be seen here:

http://www.we-energies.com/environmental/protect_wildlife.htm

Note that the next box at the Oak Creek power plant (on the lake shore just
south of the city) is currently occupied by great horned owls.

Other raptors are seen so frequently, especially along the freeways where
virtually no one ever approaches near to them on foot, that they arouse
little notice among the general population. Cooper's hawks, rough legged
hawks, red tailed, red shouldered, sharp shines, kestrels and broad wings
(in season) are everywhere. Owls, though seldom seen by most, are also
abundant.....great horned, barred, eastern screech, saw whet, etc. With the
harsh winter we've been having (not really all that harsh by historical
standards, but a damned sight worse than anything we've had in the past 14
years) there are fairly frequent sightings of snowy owls and even northern
shrikes, which the field guides list as scarce, are popping up all over the
place.

Wolves in southeastern Wisconsin seemed like a highly improbable scenario
just a few years ago. Now.......?

Wolfgang

Bob Weinberger · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 23

"Wolfgang" wrote in message @mid.individual.net...

Snip a lot of good stuff in the interest of space

> Wolves in southeastern Wisconsin seemed like a highly improbable scenario
> just a few years ago. Now.......?
>
> Wolfgang

Perhaps I should have been more specific when I said keep their distance,on
a regular basis. as I meant avoiding direct contact rather than physical
distance. And I was only applying that to the parts of the inland west
where they are still purposely killed.

Recent human encroachment on their habitat, though a convenient theory ,
may not answer why so many species of wildlife that heretofore studiously
avoided populated areas are now a common occurrance in populated areas. I
live in a town of only 12,000 people, but while the population of the town
and the entire county (bigger in area than some Eastern states) has been
quite stable for the last 50 years and is in fact less than it was in 1900,
wildlife sightings in town have increased markedly in the last 20 years or
so. The part of town that I live in was established prior to the
transcontinental railroad coming through, and was the downtown area until
downtown moved to be nearer the depot. Altough my house is only on a 1/3
acre lot, I now commonly have deer bedded in my back yard. A neighbor a
block away had a cougar kill a deer in his yard a few years ago. Bear are
now common visitors in the fall in any year with a poor wild berry crop.
People in town now need to be sure to keep their small dogs and their cats
in at night if they don't want them taken by coyotes or cougar. Three years
ago we had a moose (which are not historically native to Oregon , but are
recently becoming established in this and our neighboring county to the
North - apparently from migrants from Idaho) walk down our street. And in
the last few years I have to be especially vigilant to not hit elk at night
at the west entrance to town.

I believe the prime reason for much of the increased interaction with
wildlife in populated areas is the change in our culture from one in which
anything that was edible (and many that aren't) was killed, and the long
time frame it took wildlife to respond to that change in culture and adapt
to human concentrations

BTW, if the relationship between coyotes and wolves there is anything like
it is here, expect to see a drastic reduction in the coyote population as
the wolf population increases.

Bob Weinberger

rw · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 209

Larry L wrote:
> "Chip Thomas" wrote
>
>
>>Do you think its overdue?
>>
>>
>
>
> No ... I don't .... but then I don't know much about the overall situation.
>
> Larry L ( Lack of knowledge seldom keeps me from forming opinions Smile

>
>

We have plenty of wolves around here. Probably the majority of people
are in favor of eradicating them, but there are a sizable number of
people who like having them around. I'm in the second camp. Whenever I
see one and it sees me it makes tracks. It's always a thrill to spot one.

I'm not at all afraid of them, but I keep my dogs close when I'm skiing
or fishing or whatever. I'm more afraid of my dogs eating the illegal
poisoned baits or getting caught in the traps that the anti-wolf crowd
puts out.

I think they have to be controlled. I'm in favor of culling wolves that
kill livestock and of compensating ranchers for losses. I'm not in favor
of sport hunting for wolves, nor am I in favor of sport hunting for
mountain lions, nor of bear baiting.

Despite the alarmist rhetoric of the anti-wolf lobby, the elk are doing
just fine. Elk hunting has become more difficult, though, because the
wolves keep them on the move. It's also said that the bulls don't bugle
as readily.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Wolfgang · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 325

"Bob Weinberger" wrote in message $wG2.6218@trndny09...
>
> "Wolfgang" wrote in message
> @mid.individual.net...
>
> Snip a lot of good stuff in the interest of space
>
>> Wolves in southeastern Wisconsin seemed like a highly improbable scenario
>> just a few years ago. Now.......?
>>
>> Wolfgang
>
> Perhaps I should have been more specific when I said keep their
> distance,on a regular basis. as I meant avoiding direct contact rather
> than physical distance.

For pratcial purposes, I suspect that the difference is pretty much a matter
of degree.....the more distance, the less direct contact.

> And I was only applying that to the parts of the inland west where they
> are still purposely killed.

I haven't studied wolves in any depth, so I don't know much about mortality
figures, but I suspect from what little I've heard that deliberate lupicide
(well, they ain't "homo"....right?) ranks high among causes of death here,
too.

> Recent human encroachment on their habitat, though a convenient theory ,
> may not answer why so many species of wildlife that heretofore studiously
> avoided populated areas are now a common occurrance in populated areas. I
> live in a town of only 12,000 people, but while the population of the town
> and the entire county (bigger in area than some Eastern states) has been
> quite stable for the last 50 years and is in fact less than it was in
> 1900, wildlife sightings in town have increased markedly in the last 20
> years or so. The part of town that I live in was established prior to the
> transcontinental railroad coming through, and was the downtown area until
> downtown moved to be nearer the depot. Altough my house is only on a 1/3
> acre lot, I now commonly have deer bedded in my back yard. A neighbor a
> block away had a cougar kill a deer in his yard a few years ago. Bear are
> now common visitors in the fall in any year with a poor wild berry crop.
> People in town now need to be sure to keep their small dogs and their
> cats in at night if they don't want them taken by coyotes or cougar.
> Three years ago we had a moose (which are not historically native to
> Oregon , but are recently becoming established in this and our neighboring
> county to the North - apparently from migrants from Idaho) walk down our
> street. And in the last few years I have to be especially vigilant to not
> hit elk at night at the west entrance to town.
>
> I believe the prime reason for much of the increased interaction with
> wildlife in populated areas is the change in our culture from one in which
> anything that was edible (and many that aren't) was killed, and the long
> time frame it took wildlife to respond to that change in culture and adapt
> to human concentrations

O.k., encroachment was a simplification. To be sure, other factors come
into play everywhere to one degree or another. However, even in places such
as you describe human activity, regardless of permanent occupancy, is ever
on the rise, albeit with temporary local lulls.

Certainly, the cessation of indiscriminate (at best) slaughter and of
deliberate targeting for extermination has also made a great difference.
But there are also species that are still hunted avidly in many parts of the
country and that are thus pushed into relatively safe areas, like urban
centers. This is compounded in some cases, like that of the white tailed
deer here in Wisconsin, by policies which have increased the size of the
herd beyond all expectations in recent years. In this instance, it isn't a
marked diminution in hunting, or in habitat for that matter, that is the
source of the migration; it is instead a drastic expansion of the
population. But then, it isn't much of a reach to think of this as yet
another form of human encroachment. After all, the deer are in effect being
raised as just another domesticated livestock animal.

Here in southern Wisconsin, the ring-necked pheasant is a good example of an
animal whose population has suffered dramatically as a direct result of
human encroachment. Once again, it isn't necessarily.....or not
only.....occupancy of the land by ever increasing number of humans that is
to blame. Such occupancy IS increasing in many places as people find
themselves willing to commute ever greater distances between work and home
(at least for now......till the REAL gasoline crunch comes) but other land
use policies have also changed drastically in recent decades. Woodlots,
small wetlands and fallow fields have shrunk drastically in many places not
only as a result of residential developments, but also because of changing
farming practices as small private landholdings continue to disappear into
the may of agribusiness. As you doubtless know, fencerows and other parcels
of wildlife habitat (however small and fragmented they may have been)
continue to disappear at alarming rates all over the country.

> BTW, if the relationship between coyotes and wolves there is anything like
> it is here, expect to see a drastic reduction in the coyote population as
> the wolf population increases.

It will be interesting to see whether wolves become permanently established
here. I suspect it won't happen. There may be a couple here and there for
a while, but there are just too many people, too much antipathy and too few
places for the wolves to hide. If they are here for a while it is
inevitable that they will be held responsible for the disappearance of
somebody's little Fifi, and quite possibly justifiably so. One of the more
interesting possible outcomes of the relatively stringent protection wolves
have enjoyed in the lower 48 in recent years is that for the first time in
the history of the occupation of North America by Europeans and their
descendants, wolves are not being shot, or shot at, on sight by virtually
everyone who has the opportunity. It's probably just a matter of time
before some of them lose some of their fear is bred out of them. If
populations increase enough it is also probably just a matter of time till
someone IS attacked, and quite possibly killed, by healthy wild wolves.
Then we get to start all over again.

Wolfgang

Chip Thomas · Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 4

DoubleHaul wrote:
> Larry L;107337 Wrote:
>> I see wolves are to be removed from the endangered species list
>>
>
>
> Great when does the wolf season open?
>
> Better yet- Save a school of trout & shoot a Loon :boxing:
>
>

Check with the ADF&G. They have a wolf season this year.

asadi · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 54

"Wolfgang" wrote in message @mid.individual.net...
>
> "Bob Weinberger" wrote in message
> $wG2.6218@trndny09...
>>
>> "Wolfgang" wrote in message
>> @mid.individual.net...
>>
>> Snip a lot of good stuff in the interest of space
>>
>>> Wolves in southeastern Wisconsin seemed like a highly improbable
>>> scenario just a few years ago. Now.......?
>>>
>>> Wolfgang
>>
>> Perhaps I should have been more specific when I said keep their
>> distance,on a regular basis. as I meant avoiding direct contact rather
>> than physical distance.
>
> For pratcial purposes, I suspect that the difference is pretty much a
> matter of degree.....the more distance, the less direct contact.
>
>> And I was only applying that to the parts of the inland west where they
>> are still purposely killed.
>
> I haven't studied wolves in any depth, so I don't know much about
> mortality figures, but I suspect from what little I've heard that
> deliberate lupicide (well, they ain't "homo"....right?) ranks high among
> causes of death here, too.
>
>> Recent human encroachment on their habitat, though a convenient theory ,
>> may not answer why so many species of wildlife that heretofore
>> studiously avoided populated areas are now a common occurrance in
>> populated areas. I live in a town of only 12,000 people, but while the
>> population of the town and the entire county (bigger in area than some
>> Eastern states) has been quite stable for the last 50 years and is in
>> fact less than it was in 1900, wildlife sightings in town have increased
>> markedly in the last 20 years or so. The part of town that I live in was
>> established prior to the transcontinental railroad coming through, and
>> was the downtown area until downtown moved to be nearer the depot.
>> Altough my house is only on a 1/3 acre lot, I now commonly have deer
>> bedded in my back yard. A neighbor a block away had a cougar kill a deer
>> in his yard a few years ago. Bear are now common visitors in the fall in
>> any year with a poor wild berry crop. People in town now need to be sure
>> to keep their small dogs and their cats in at night if they don't want
>> them taken by coyotes or cougar. Three years ago we had a moose (which
>> are not historically native to Oregon , but are recently becoming
>> established in this and our neighboring county to the North - apparently
>> from migrants from Idaho) walk down our street. And in the last few
>> years I have to be especially vigilant to not hit elk at night at the
>> west entrance to town.
>>
>> I believe the prime reason for much of the increased interaction with
>> wildlife in populated areas is the change in our culture from one in
>> which anything that was edible (and many that aren't) was killed, and the
>> long time frame it took wildlife to respond to that change in culture and
>> adapt to human concentrations
>
> O.k., encroachment was a simplification. To be sure, other factors come
> into play everywhere to one degree or another. However, even in places
> such as you describe human activity, regardless of permanent occupancy, is
> ever on the rise, albeit with temporary local lulls.
>
> Certainly, the cessation of indiscriminate (at best) slaughter and of
> deliberate targeting for extermination has also made a great difference.
> But there are also species that are still hunted avidly in many parts of
> the country and that are thus pushed into relatively safe areas, like
> urban centers. This is compounded in some cases, like that of the white
> tailed deer here in Wisconsin, by policies which have increased the size
> of the herd beyond all expectations in recent years. In this instance, it
> isn't a marked diminution in hunting, or in habitat for that matter, that
> is the source of the migration; it is instead a drastic expansion of the
> population. But then, it isn't much of a reach to think of this as yet
> another form of human encroachment. After all, the deer are in effect
> being raised as just another domesticated livestock animal.
>
> Here in southern Wisconsin, the ring-necked pheasant is a good example of
> an animal whose population has suffered dramatically as a direct result of
> human encroachment. Once again, it isn't necessarily.....or not
> only.....occupancy of the land by ever increasing number of humans that is
> to blame. Such occupancy IS increasing in many places as people find
> themselves willing to commute ever greater distances between work and home
> (at least for now......till the REAL gasoline crunch comes) but other land
> use policies have also changed drastically in recent decades. Woodlots,
> small wetlands and fallow fields have shrunk drastically in many places
> not only as a result of residential developments, but also because of
> changing farming practices as small private landholdings continue to
> disappear into the may of agribusiness. As you doubtless know, fencerows
> and other parcels of wildlife habitat (however small and fragmented they
> may have been) continue to disappear at alarming rates all over the
> country.
>
>> BTW, if the relationship between coyotes and wolves there is anything
>> like it is here, expect to see a drastic reduction in the coyote
>> population as the wolf population increases.
>
> It will be interesting to see whether wolves become permanently
> established here. I suspect it won't happen. There may be a couple here
> and there for a while, but there are just too many people, too much
> antipathy and too few places for the wolves to hide. If they are here for
> a while it is inevitable that they will be held responsible for the
> disappearance of somebody's little Fifi, and quite possibly justifiably
> so. One of the more interesting possible outcomes of the relatively
> stringent protection wolves have enjoyed in the lower 48 in recent years
> is that for the first time in the history of the occupation of North
> America by Europeans and their descendants, wolves are not being shot, or
> shot at, on sight by virtually everyone who has the opportunity. It's
> probably just a matter of time before some of them lose some of their fear
> is bred out of them. If populations increase enough it is also probably
> just a matter of time till someone IS attacked, and quite possibly killed,
> by healthy wild wolves. Then we get to start all over again.
>
> Wolfgang

Dang Wolf, lupicide is right up there with squoze...(which ain't in my
dictionary so I don't know if I'm spelling it right)

john

Wolfgang · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 325

"asadi" wrote in message $Pv2.22297@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...

> Dang Wolf, lupicide is right up there with squoze...(which ain't in my
> dictionary so I don't know if I'm spelling it right)

I'm not sure that I've ever seen "squoze" in print before. I may have used
it somewhere at one time or another but I'm not certain. In any case, I'd
have spelled it exactly that way. Either way, priority gives one certain
rights. Now we know how it is correctly spelled. Smile

Wolfgang

user · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

"Wolfgang" wrote in message @mid.individual.net...
>
> "asadi" wrote in message
> $Pv2.22297@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>
>
>> Dang Wolf, lupicide is right up there with squoze...(which ain't in my
>> dictionary so I don't know if I'm spelling it right)
>
> I'm not sure that I've ever seen "squoze" in print before. I may have
> used it somewhere at one time or another but I'm not certain. In any
> case, I'd have spelled it exactly that way. Either way, priority gives
> one certain rights. Now we know how it is correctly spelled. Smile

>
> Wolfgang
>
>
>

user · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

"Wolfgang" wrote in message @mid.individual.net...
>
> "asadi" wrote in message
> $Pv2.22297@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>
>
>> Dang Wolf, lupicide is right up there with squoze...(which ain't in my
>> dictionary so I don't know if I'm spelling it right)
>
> I'm not sure that I've ever seen "squoze" in print before. I may have
> used it somewhere at one time or another but I'm not certain. In any
> case, I'd have spelled it exactly that way. Either way, priority gives
> one certain rights. Now we know how it is correctly spelled. Smile

>
> Wolfgang
>
>

>>>>>>does anyone have a wolf recipe? might be good table fare !
>>>>>>cheeses of nazareth
>

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