UK -- Liverpool Uni boat club- swamping/sinking

jmh · Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 3

Just picked this up from the local rag, otherwise known as the
Liverpool Echo, anyone know any more?
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/02/04/fire-crew-saves-rowing-team-100252-20431966/

February 4th 2008
A RESCUE operation had to be mounted to save a Liverpool rowing team
after its boat sank.

All eight members of the crew, belonging to the Liverpool University
Boat Team, had to be rescued by the fire service after they
encountered difficulties on the river at Cholmondeley Road in Runcorn.

It is thought bad weather conditions caused the long boat to take on
water and it sank.

The crew managed to clamber on to the riverbank but became trapped by
large bushes and brambles and needed to be rescued by the emergency
services.

They had set off from a nearby rowing club.

The operation was launched at around 2.45pm on Sunday, Feb 3.

Two fire engines from Runcorn, two from Widnes, a specialist machine
with a hydraulic platform, and the fire service's boat were all used
to get to the crew who were one to two kilometres downstream on the
opposite side of the river.

It took an hour for the fire service to get the crew to safety.

Paramedics then checked them over and took a number of them to Whiston
and Warrington hospitals.

Their conditions are not thought to be serious.

Watch manager Mike Clark from the fire service said it was likely when
the boat crew first set off they had been relatively sheltered from
the weather, but as they got further down the river the conditions
changed.

He said: "Due to deteriorating weather conditions, the boat started to
take on water and eventually sank.

"All eight of them went in but got out of the water but were stuck on
the bank and were unable to make their way back to safety.

"There was a large number of paramedics who received them as they got
off the boat. Nobody had any injuries of any significance."

I've no isde how to post a hyperlink so don't bother getting cross
about it. I thought the issue was more important.

jmh

Archived from group: rec>sport>rowing

Phil · Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 9

On 5 Feb, 07:59, jmh wrote:
> Just picked this up from the local rag, otherwise known as the
> Liverpool Echo, anyone know any more?http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/02/04/f...
>
> February 4th 2008
> A RESCUE operation had to be mounted to save a Liverpool rowing team
> after its boat sank.
>
> All eight members of the crew, belonging to the Liverpool University
> Boat Team, had to be rescued by the fire service after they
> encountered difficulties on the river at Cholmondeley Road in Runcorn.
>
> It is thought bad weather conditions caused the long boat to take on
> water and it sank.
>
> The crew managed to clamber on to the riverbank but became trapped by
> large bushes and brambles and needed to be rescued by the emergency
> services.
>
> They had set off from a nearby rowing club.
>
> The operation was launched at around 2.45pm on Sunday, Feb 3.
>
> Two fire engines from Runcorn, two from Widnes, a specialist machine
> with a hydraulic platform, and the fire service's boat were all used
> to get to the crew who were one to two kilometres downstream on the
> opposite side of the river.
>
> It took an hour for the fire service to get the crew to safety.
>
> Paramedics then checked them over and took a number of them to Whiston
> and Warrington hospitals.
>
> Their conditions are not thought to be serious.
>
> Watch manager Mike Clark from the fire service said it was likely when
> the boat crew first set off they had been relatively sheltered from
> the weather, but as they got further down the river the conditions
> changed.
>
> He said: "Due to deteriorating weather conditions, the boat started to
> take on water and eventually sank.
>
> "All eight of them went in but got out of the water but were stuck on
> the bank and were unable to make their way back to safety.
>
> "There was a large number of paramedics who received them as they got
> off the boat. Nobody had any injuries of any significance."
>
> I've no isde how to post a hyperlink so don't bother getting cross
> about it. I thought the issue was more important.
>
> jmh

You did post a link!

Another incident that could have ended so differently. Thank their
good fortune that they are all safe.

Anyone know what boat they use?

Phil.

Stephen and Jane · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 23

"jmh" wrote in message @f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Just picked this up from the local rag, otherwise known as the
> Liverpool Echo, anyone know any more?
> http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/02/04/fire-crew-saves-rowing-team-100252-20431966/
>

There is another only very slightly different report, probably from a
diferent edition:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/02/04/rowers-rescued-100252-20432551/

What a relief all are safe!

It never fails to shock us that this continues to happen, seven years after
our son died in a similar incident. Thankfully, the Bridgewater canal is
not as wide as the Ebro, but it seems that although (in the picture) there
appears to be places for relatively easy landing, the crew was forced to get
out onto the bank at a place so inhospitable they had to be rescued using
specialist fire rescue machinery. Our guess is that the boat sank so
quickly that they didn't have much choice. However, being on dry land,
however inhospitable, is better than being in the water, and they clearly
saw this as a better option than prolonging immersion by trying to swim with
the boat to a better landing site.

We hope that the incident is fully reviewed and analysed so that all lessons
can be identified and acted upon. It would be really useful if the club
would publicise their conclusions and recommendations on this site so
everyone can benefit, as we all know that their report to the ARA will never
see the light of day.

We also hope that the ARA act upon the recommendations of the RoSPA Rowing
Safety Review (commissioned by Sport England and the Minister for Sport) so
that this kind of incident is eradicated. The final version of the review
is complete and the launch is expected next month.

Jane and Stephen

Carl Douglas · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 93

Phil wrote:
> On 5 Feb, 07:59, jmh wrote:
>
>>Just picked this up from the local rag, otherwise known as the
>>Liverpool Echo, anyone know any more?http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/02/04/f...
>>
>>February 4th 2008
>>A RESCUE operation had to be mounted to save a Liverpool rowing team
>>after its boat sank.
>>
>>All eight members of the crew, belonging to the Liverpool University
>>Boat Team, had to be rescued by the fire service after they
>>encountered difficulties on the river at Cholmondeley Road in Runcorn.
>>
>>It is thought bad weather conditions caused the long boat to take on
>>water and it sank.
>>
>>The crew managed to clamber on to the riverbank but became trapped by
>>large bushes and brambles and needed to be rescued by the emergency
>>services.
>>
>>They had set off from a nearby rowing club.
>>
>>The operation was launched at around 2.45pm on Sunday, Feb 3.
>>
>>Two fire engines from Runcorn, two from Widnes, a specialist machine
>>with a hydraulic platform, and the fire service's boat were all used
>>to get to the crew who were one to two kilometres downstream on the
>>opposite side of the river.
>>
>>It took an hour for the fire service to get the crew to safety.
>>
>>Paramedics then checked them over and took a number of them to Whiston
>>and Warrington hospitals.
>>
>>Their conditions are not thought to be serious.
>>
>>Watch manager Mike Clark from the fire service said it was likely when
>>the boat crew first set off they had been relatively sheltered from
>>the weather, but as they got further down the river the conditions
>>changed.
>>
>>He said: "Due to deteriorating weather conditions, the boat started to
>>take on water and eventually sank.
>>
>>"All eight of them went in but got out of the water but were stuck on
>>the bank and were unable to make their way back to safety.
>>
>>"There was a large number of paramedics who received them as they got
>>off the boat. Nobody had any injuries of any significance."
>>
>>I've no isde how to post a hyperlink so don't bother getting cross
>>about it. I thought the issue was more important.
>>
>>jmh
>
>
> You did post a link!
>
> Another incident that could have ended so differently. Thank their
> good fortune that they are all safe.
>
> Anyone know what boat they use?
>
> Phil.

I'm sure everyone is mightily relieved that all are safe & well.

But this would have every appearance of being a wholly unnecessary &
preventable accident. So now some awkward questions:
1. Who, if anyone, did a risk assessment before that outing?
2. Did they assess the hazards attendant on using an underbuoyant shell?
3. Did they know anything about, & if so had they studied:
www.leoblockley.org.uk ?
4. Did they know that on windy days you get waves on water, & that
those waves have the potential to sink an underbuoyant eight "just like
that"?
5. Did they know anything about shell buoyancy, why it is needed & how
much effort everyone, except & despite the ARA, has invested into
getting that message across to Joe & Jane Rower?
6. What was the eventual cost, to the rescue services, hospitals & the
club of their swamping?
7. Will any of those costs now be visited upon the club?

In any sport with a well-run safety management this kind of thing simply
would not still be happening. That it is still happening is a disgrace
to our sport.

And, talking of disgraceful safety management:
A couple of days ago a new rower dropped in on us. He knows that his
early sculling career may involve the odd inadvertent swim. And he does
some of his sculling on a private lake owned by a water-skiing buddy (he
is a water skier himself), so he wears a very thin neoprene wet-suit
which, he says, is neither incommoding nor uncomfortable in such use.
He commented without prompting that such a suit has the bonus of, as
well as retaining body heat when immersed, of providing significant
flotation support. SO far, so good.

Then I asked him, since he'd be sculling alone, what advice on
self-rescue he'd had from his rowing club, which is on the Thames a
dozen or so miles upstream from here. "Oh", he said, "I've been told to
swim to the bow & tow the boat to the bank". Then I told him about the
death 3 years ago of Sikander Farooq, a few miles further upstream at
reading. He very quickly agreed that, in cold water, this self-rescue
advice was actually a set of insane instructions on how to drown
yourself. And, being very familiar with immersion as a skier (&
surfer), he immediately understood the common sense of the lay-down
straddle & paddle method.

But the sad fact remains that major clubs are _still_ advising new
members & old to use the same ARA self-rescue method which so
effectively killed 15-year-old Sikander. Where the hell is the evidence
of any effective ARA safety education policy?
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

Edgar · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 64

"jmh" wrote in message @f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Just picked this up from the local rag, otherwise known as the
> Liverpool Echo, anyone know any more?
> http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/02/04/fire-crew-saves-rowing-team-100252-20431966/

> "All eight of them went in but got out of the water but were stuck on
> the bank and were unable to make their way back to safety.

Only eight? Did they leave the cox behind?

carolinetu · Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 33

On Feb 5, 1:17 pm, "Edgar" wrote:
> "jmh" wrote in message
>
> @f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Just picked this up from the local rag, otherwise known as the
> > Liverpool Echo, anyone know any more?
> >http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/02/04/f...
>
>
>
> > "All eight of them went in but got out of the water but were stuck on
> > the bank and were unable to make their way back to safety.
>
> Only eight? Did they leave the cox behind?

Carl,

If your new friend would like to contact me, I am organising a capsize
drill (in a nice warm pool) on Sunday 9th March as part of a UKCC
Level 2 course, where I will be instructing the trainee coaches how to
teach the "straddle and paddle" method as well as buddy rescue, in
line with current ARA recommendations. He is welcome to come along as
a guinea pig if he would like to. We can also teach him to scull and
hopefully minimise the occasions when his wetsuit is needed.

The trainee coaches will also be learning how to do a risk
assessment. The course materials for this have just been updated and
are very good in my opinion.

I have the impression that many university boat clubs are run by the
students, without the benefit of experienced coaches and safety
advisers. My feeling is that the universities should take some
responsibility and not allow their students to expose themselves to
unacceptable risks - in other words, if they can't afford safe
equipment and qualified coaches, then they shouldn't offer rowing as a
sport.

Caroline

Carl Douglas · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 93

carolinetu wrote:
> On Feb 5, 1:17 pm, "Edgar" wrote:
>
>>"jmh" wrote in message
>>
>>@f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>>Just picked this up from the local rag, otherwise known as the
>>>Liverpool Echo, anyone know any more?
>>>http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/02/04/f...
>>
>>
>>
>>>"All eight of them went in but got out of the water but were stuck on
>>>the bank and were unable to make their way back to safety.
>>
>>Only eight? Did they leave the cox behind?
>
>
> Carl,
>
> If your new friend would like to contact me, I am organising a capsize
> drill (in a nice warm pool) on Sunday 9th March as part of a UKCC
> Level 2 course, where I will be instructing the trainee coaches how to
> teach the "straddle and paddle" method as well as buddy rescue, in
> line with current ARA recommendations. He is welcome to come along as
> a guinea pig if he would like to. We can also teach him to scull and
> hopefully minimise the occasions when his wetsuit is needed.
>
> The trainee coaches will also be learning how to do a risk
> assessment. The course materials for this have just been updated and
> are very good in my opinion.
>
> I have the impression that many university boat clubs are run by the
> students, without the benefit of experienced coaches and safety
> advisers. My feeling is that the universities should take some
> responsibility and not allow their students to expose themselves to
> unacceptable risks - in other words, if they can't afford safe
> equipment and qualified coaches, then they shouldn't offer rowing as a
> sport.
>
> Caroline
>

Thanks Caroline. I'll mention it to him when next we speak. However,
with his water sports background he is probably as experienced in
straddle & paddle as the best (or most often immersed?) of us.

I'm glad we've got this change into the ARA safety documentation. But
words on paper do not of themselves save lives. What is needed is a
real will & action, campaign is not too strong a word, from & by the ARA
to put real safety to the top of the boathouse agenda & onto changing
room & boathouse doors everywhere. For crew shells the first and
over-riding requirement could be: "Does your boat have full under-seat
buoyancy? If not, put it straight back on the rack". And for scullers:
"Have you studied and practiced the Straddle and Paddle self-rescue? If
not, put your boat straight back on the rack".

It really cannot be acceptable that university rowers, in what claims to
be a well-organised sport, continue to go afloat in defective equipment
which, when conditions change or mishap occurs (as they will), puts them
into pointless danger & drags in (if they are lucky) the emergency
services. What if a rower had died? What, too, if a rescuer had died?

I don't think it should be for the university authorities to regulate in
detail the activities of semi-autonomous sports clubs, except after
cases of extreme folly. And past bitter experience has shown senior
academics prepared actively to cover up the truth after the loss of a
rower's life, & even to coerce the students into complicit silence. The
sport's governance, which must include safety management, is the
responsibility of the NGB - in this case the ARA.

It is for the ARA, which now openly admits to its duty of care, to
pro-actively oversee safety management within the sport in England &
Wales. However, its officers' past campaigns of denial & wilful
obstruction are wholly responsible for the lack of grasp of the
desirability of shell buoyancy across the sport. The ARA continues to
refuse to talk with those of us who have forced it to confront its
responsibilities, but is now at least & at last borrowing leaves from
our book - because it absolutely has to. But its long-serving,
glued-in-place officers remain largely in denial, even to this day, even
after spectacular mass sinkings right outside its own offices, even
after the deaths of rowers.

Thus one really has to question the fitness of present ARA
administration to implement a full program on safety. This is a dismal
state of affairs. The big fear of those of us who have tried hardest
spread the safety message & thus to forestall further tragedies in our
sport is that it will take at least 1 more utterly pointless death
before the ARA is galvanised into real action on rowing safety. Until
then, the main concern of those most to blame for what has gone wrong
appears to be the preservation of their personal hides & status.

Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

Paul · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

On 5 Feb, 15:59, Carl Douglas wrote:
> carolinetu wrote:
> > On Feb 5, 1:17 pm, "Edgar" wrote:
>
> >>"jmh" wrote in message
>
> >>@f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com....
>
> >>>Just picked this up from the local rag, otherwise known as the
> >>>Liverpool Echo, anyone know any more?
> >>>http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/02/04/f....
>
> >>
>
> >>>"All eight of them went in but got out of the water but were stuck on
> >>>the bank and were unable to make their way back to safety.
>
> >>Only eight? Did they leave the cox behind?
>
> > Carl,
>
> > If your new friend would like to contact me, I am organising a capsize
> > drill (in a nice warm pool) on Sunday 9th March as part of a UKCC
> > Level 2 course, where I will be instructing the trainee coaches how to
> > teach the "straddle and paddle" method as well as buddy rescue, in
> > line with current ARA recommendations. He is welcome to come along as
> > a guinea pig if he would like to. We can also teach him to scull and
> > hopefully minimise the occasions when his wetsuit is needed.
>
> > The trainee coaches will also be learning how to do a risk
> > assessment. The course materials for this have just been updated and
> > are very good in my opinion.
>
> > I have the impression that many university boat clubs are run by the
> > students, without the benefit of experienced coaches and safety
> > advisers. My feeling is that the universities should take some
> > responsibility and not allow their students to expose themselves to
> > unacceptable risks - in other words, if they can't afford safe
> > equipment and qualified coaches, then they shouldn't offer rowing as a
> > sport.
>
> > Caroline
>
> Thanks Caroline. I'll mention it to him when next we speak. However,
> with his water sports background he is probably as experienced in
> straddle & paddle as the best (or most often immersed?) of us.
>
> I'm glad we've got this change into the ARA safety documentation. But
> words on paper do not of themselves save lives. What is needed is a
> real will & action, campaign is not too strong a word, from & by the ARA
> to put real safety to the top of the boathouse agenda & onto changing
> room & boathouse doors everywhere. For crew shells the first and
> over-riding requirement could be: "Does your boat have full under-seat
> buoyancy? If not, put it straight back on the rack". And for scullers:
> "Have you studied and practiced the Straddle and Paddle self-rescue? If
> not, put your boat straight back on the rack".
>
> It really cannot be acceptable that university rowers, in what claims to
> be a well-organised sport, continue to go afloat in defective equipment
> which, when conditions change or mishap occurs (as they will), puts them
> into pointless danger & drags in (if they are lucky) the emergency
> services. What if a rower had died? What, too, if a rescuer had died?
>
> I don't think it should be for the university authorities to regulate in
> detail the activities of semi-autonomous sports clubs, except after
> cases of extreme folly. And past bitter experience has shown senior
> academics prepared actively to cover up the truth after the loss of a
> rower's life, & even to coerce the students into complicit silence. The
> sport's governance, which must include safety management, is the
> responsibility of the NGB - in this case the ARA.
>
> It is for the ARA, which now openly admits to its duty of care, to
> pro-actively oversee safety management within the sport in England &
> Wales. However, its officers' past campaigns of denial & wilful
> obstruction are wholly responsible for the lack of grasp of the
> desirability of shell buoyancy across the sport. The ARA continues to
> refuse to talk with those of us who have forced it to confront its
> responsibilities, but is now at least & at last borrowing leaves from
> our book - because it absolutely has to. But its long-serving,
> glued-in-place officers remain largely in denial, even to this day, even
> after spectacular mass sinkings right outside its own offices, even
> after the deaths of rowers.
>
> Thus one really has to question the fitness of present ARA
> administration to implement a full program on safety. This is a dismal
> state of affairs. The big fear of those of us who have tried hardest
> spread the safety message & thus to forestall further tragedies in our
> sport is that it will take at least 1 more utterly pointless death
> before the ARA is galvanised into real action on rowing safety. Until
> then, the main concern of those most to blame for what has gone wrong
> appears to be the preservation of their personal hides & status.
>
> Carl
>
> --
> Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
> Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
> Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
> Email: c...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
> URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Carl

Do you think the ARA will really ignore the recommendations of the
RoSPA Rowing
Safety Review, which presumably will include manditory buoyancy, or do
you knbow something that the rest of us do not?

Paul

Carl Douglas · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 93

Paul wrote:
> On 5 Feb, 15:59, Carl Douglas wrote:
>
>>carolinetu wrote:
>>
>>>On Feb 5, 1:17 pm, "Edgar" wrote:
>>
>>>>"jmh" wrote in message
>>
>>>>@f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>>>Just picked this up from the local rag, otherwise known as the
>>>>>Liverpool Echo, anyone know any more?
>>>>>http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/02/04/f...
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>"All eight of them went in but got out of the water but were stuck on
>>>>>the bank and were unable to make their way back to safety.
>>
>>>>Only eight? Did they leave the cox behind?
>>
>>>Carl,
>>
>>>If your new friend would like to contact me, I am organising a capsize
>>>drill (in a nice warm pool) on Sunday 9th March as part of a UKCC
>>>Level 2 course, where I will be instructing the trainee coaches how to
>>>teach the "straddle and paddle" method as well as buddy rescue, in
>>>line with current ARA recommendations. He is welcome to come along as
>>>a guinea pig if he would like to. We can also teach him to scull and
>>>hopefully minimise the occasions when his wetsuit is needed.
>>
>>>The trainee coaches will also be learning how to do a risk
>>>assessment. The course materials for this have just been updated and
>>>are very good in my opinion.
>>
>>>I have the impression that many university boat clubs are run by the
>>>students, without the benefit of experienced coaches and safety
>>>advisers. My feeling is that the universities should take some
>>>responsibility and not allow their students to expose themselves to
>>>unacceptable risks - in other words, if they can't afford safe
>>>equipment and qualified coaches, then they shouldn't offer rowing as a
>>>sport.
>>
>>>Caroline
>>
>>Thanks Caroline. I'll mention it to him when next we speak. However,
>>with his water sports background he is probably as experienced in
>>straddle & paddle as the best (or most often immersed?) of us.
>>
>>I'm glad we've got this change into the ARA safety documentation. But
>>words on paper do not of themselves save lives. What is needed is a
>>real will & action, campaign is not too strong a word, from & by the ARA
>>to put real safety to the top of the boathouse agenda & onto changing
>>room & boathouse doors everywhere. For crew shells the first and
>>over-riding requirement could be: "Does your boat have full under-seat
>>buoyancy? If not, put it straight back on the rack". And for scullers:
>>"Have you studied and practiced the Straddle and Paddle self-rescue? If
>>not, put your boat straight back on the rack".
>>
>>It really cannot be acceptable that university rowers, in what claims to
>>be a well-organised sport, continue to go afloat in defective equipment
>>which, when conditions change or mishap occurs (as they will), puts them
>>into pointless danger & drags in (if they are lucky) the emergency
>>services. What if a rower had died? What, too, if a rescuer had died?
>>
>>I don't think it should be for the university authorities to regulate in
>>detail the activities of semi-autonomous sports clubs, except after
>>cases of extreme folly. And past bitter experience has shown senior
>>academics prepared actively to cover up the truth after the loss of a
>>rower's life, & even to coerce the students into complicit silence. The
>>sport's governance, which must include safety management, is the
>>responsibility of the NGB - in this case the ARA.
>>
>>It is for the ARA, which now openly admits to its duty of care, to
>>pro-actively oversee safety management within the sport in England &
>>Wales. However, its officers' past campaigns of denial & wilful
>>obstruction are wholly responsible for the lack of grasp of the
>>desirability of shell buoyancy across the sport. The ARA continues to
>>refuse to talk with those of us who have forced it to confront its
>>responsibilities, but is now at least & at last borrowing leaves from
>>our book - because it absolutely has to. But its long-serving,
>>glued-in-place officers remain largely in denial, even to this day, even
>>after spectacular mass sinkings right outside its own offices, even
>>after the deaths of rowers.
>>
>>Thus one really has to question the fitness of present ARA
>>administration to implement a full program on safety. This is a dismal
>>state of affairs. The big fear of those of us who have tried hardest
>>spread the safety message & thus to forestall further tragedies in our
>>sport is that it will take at least 1 more utterly pointless death
>>before the ARA is galvanised into real action on rowing safety. Until
>>then, the main concern of those most to blame for what has gone wrong
>>appears to be the preservation of their personal hides & status.
>>
>>Carl
>>
>>--
>>Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
>> Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
>>Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
>>Email: c...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
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>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
> Carl
>
> Do you think the ARA will really ignore the recommendations of the
> RoSPA Rowing
> Safety Review, which presumably will include manditory buoyancy, or do
> you knbow something that the rest of us do not?
>
> Paul

A good question, Paul, the answer to which I await as keenly as you do.

But a better question, at which I was ungently hinting, is that the ARA
haven't & don't show too many signs of being fit persons to implement
vigorously whatever is advised.

Do you ask, let alone expect, a chronically unfit oarsman to stroke your
first eight to victory just becasue he's been around since kingdom come?

Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

Stephen and Jane · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 23

"Carl Douglas" wrote in message$r9l$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>big snip

> The big fear of those of us who have tried hardest
> spread the safety message & thus to forestall further tragedies in our
> sport is that it will take at least 1 more utterly pointless death before
> the ARA is galvanised into real action on rowing safety. Until then, the
> main concern of those most to blame for what has gone wrong appears to be
> the preservation of their personal hides & status.
>
> Carl
>

Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, those who have already salved
their own conscience by their construct of a big excuse to do nothing (blame
the victim etc) will always find it easier to do the same next time, and the
next time, and the next time ... and therefore find it harder and harder to
change their declared stance.

Jane and Stephen

Peter Ford · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 10

On Feb 5, 2:02 pm, carolinetu wrote:
> On Feb 5, 1:17 pm, "Edgar" wrote:
>
> > "jmh" wrote in message
>
> >@f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > Just picked this up from the local rag, otherwise known as the
> > > Liverpool Echo, anyone know any more?
> > >http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/02/04/f...
>
> >
>
> > > "All eight of them went in but got out of the water but were stuck on
> > > the bank and were unable to make their way back to safety.
>
> > Only eight? Did they leave the cox behind?
>
> Carl,
>
> If your new friend would like to contact me, I am organising a capsize
> drill (in a nice warm pool) on Sunday 9th March as part of a UKCC
> Level 2 course, where I will be instructing the trainee coaches how to
> teach the "straddle and paddle" method as well as buddy rescue, in
> line with current ARA recommendations. He is welcome to come along as
> a guinea pig if he would like to. We can also teach him to scull and
> hopefully minimise the occasions when his wetsuit is needed.
>
> The trainee coaches will also be learning how to do a risk
> assessment. The course materials for this have just been updated and
> are very good in my opinion.
>
> I have the impression that many university boat clubs are run by the
> students, without the benefit of experienced coaches and safety
> advisers. My feeling is that the universities should take some
> responsibility and not allow their students to expose themselves to
> unacceptable risks - in other words, if they can't afford safe
> equipment and qualified coaches, then they shouldn't offer rowing as a
> sport.
>
> Caroline

University boat clubs are presumably run by the students yes, without
qualified coaches; but that is almost certainly the case in many
other, intrinsically more dangerous sports/activities. But with some
good faith in the intelligence and humanity of such organisors, there
should be no reason why this should not take place. Other sports rely
vitally on the ability of its practitioners to make sensible,
competent risk assessments, often on a continuous basis; this works
well, but usually with the benefit of a well thought-out advisory
structure and training system. The two sports I have most knowledge of
in this respect are dinghy racing and orienteering, both of which I
consider to be more inherently dangerous than rowing; while both
watersports obviously include the risk of drowning, only sailing
includes so many ways to be incapacitated and therefore unable to self-
rescue. Orienteering has a much lower risk of death, but a massively
higher risk of minor/major injuries from falls/collisions with trees
in woodland at speed. With both sports, participants must make
continuous risk assessments of whether their actions will cause an
overly high risk of adverse consequences, and in orienteering in
particular, young children are expected to be able to do this as part
of participation in the sport.

Why then, is it such a revolutionary idea that intelligent young
adults with no taught training should be able to make risk assessments
about the safety of their decisions in rowing? My answer is mostly
that it shouldn't be, and it is simply down to everyone involved to
ensure that those making the decisions are competent to do so, at
least in the eyes of their peers. However, the primary reasons that
they might not be are that well thought-out and correct information is
not readily enough available for the intelligent but inexperienced
coach/rower to learn from, that the equipment is far too commonly not
fit for purpose, and that situations away from the normal training
environment are very hard to deal with, even for experienced people.
Perhaps, at risk of seeming to have fallen into the "Warning: coffee
may be hot" style of thinking that pervades modern life far too much,
it would be good for clubs/training centres to have information
readily available (ie as a poster) just pointing out the hazards
particular to the local area, obvious as they might seem; ie
particularly strong wind, current, tide; whatever might not be
sufficiently included in risk assessments by visitors to the area.

Particularly having seen Cam rowers recently, coxes much more capable
than many of dealing safely with the traffic havoc here can come
dangerously unstuck when faced with experiences different to what they
are used to.
This also leads onto the differing risks experienced here; the risk of
serious collision is massively higher than the risks due to swamping/
capsize, and I am still having to adjust to this change.

Peter Ford

Mike Sullivan · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 244

"Carl Douglas" wrote in message $bee$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> Phil wrote:
>> On 5 Feb, 07:59, jmh wrote:

snip
> A couple of days ago a new rower dropped in on us. He knows that his
> early sculling career may involve the odd inadvertent swim. And he does
> some of his sculling on a private lake owned by a water-skiing buddy (he
> is a water skier himself), so he wears a very thin neoprene wet-suit
> which, he says, is neither incommoding nor uncomfortable in such use.

I tried sculling a workout on a cold day in a 3/2 shortie,
way way too hot. It was one of the weirdest most uncomfortable
rows, my hands were freezing and my body overheating....

I have probs with cold hands anyway, though.

Stephen and Jane · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 23

"Peter Ford" wrote in message >
>
> University boat clubs are presumably run by the students yes, without
> qualified coaches; but that is almost certainly the case in many
> other, intrinsically more dangerous sports/activities. But with some
> good faith in the intelligence and humanity of such organisors, there
> should be no reason why this should not take place. Other sports rely
> vitally on the ability of its practitioners to make sensible,
> competent risk assessments, often on a continuous basis; this works
> well, but usually with the benefit of a well thought-out advisory
> structure and training system. The two sports I have most knowledge of
> in this respect are dinghy racing and orienteering, both of which I
> consider to be more inherently dangerous than rowing; while both
> watersports obviously include the risk of drowning, only sailing
> includes so many ways to be incapacitated and therefore unable to self-
> rescue. Orienteering has a much lower risk of death, but a massively
> higher risk of minor/major injuries from falls/collisions with trees
> in woodland at speed. With both sports, participants must make
> continuous risk assessments of whether their actions will cause an
> overly high risk of adverse consequences, and in orienteering in
> particular, young children are expected to be able to do this as part
> of participation in the sport.

The particular problem with rowing is that historically "safety" has been
seen as slightly irrelevant and largely the domain of the boring wimps who
only want to spoil the fun. Other sports put safety first, and learning
about it is part of the enjoyment of the sport right from the very start,
rather than being an apologetic post script. In some sports wearing safety
gear has a very positive connotation - and is seen as demonstrating how
exciting the sport is. Unfortunately, when we first met with the ARA
National Hon Water Safety Advisor in April 2002 he advised us that "we don't
want to scare people by telling them about risks" and that "you can make a
sport TOO safe". Things are changing, but there are still too many people
in clubs saying - "you don't want to be bothered with all that safety
stuff - rowing never did me any harm". Even the media present the sinking
of rowing boats in the (Oxford/Cambridge) Boat Race as being a bit of a
laugh, clips to be shown every year to keep the television audiences amused.

>
> Why then, is it such a revolutionary idea that intelligent young
> adults with no taught training should be able to make risk assessments
> about the safety of their decisions in rowing? My answer is mostly
> that it shouldn't be, and it is simply down to everyone involved to
> ensure that those making the decisions are competent to do so, at
> least in the eyes of their peers. However, the primary reasons that
> they might not be are that well thought-out and correct information is
> not readily enough available for the intelligent but inexperienced
> coach/rower to learn from, that the equipment is far too commonly not
> fit for purpose, and that situations away from the normal training
> environment are very hard to deal with, even for experienced people.

You are absolutely right. Everybody should be able to risk assess. All
safety choices should be 'informed' choices. All safety information should
be expert and evidence based. Inherently safe equipment should be the
default option whenever possible. BUT even with all that in place,
individual risk assessment has some severe limitations:

1) It can't work in a team setting, when the most influential member's view
will tend to prevail.
2) Everybody's personal judgement is heavily influenced by a multitude of
internal and external factors which can often lead to faulty decisions. Why
else do seemingly sensible and normal people smoke their first cigarette
(curiosity, peer pressure, want to look grown up?) or overtake on blind
bends (late for work, showing off to friends?) - when everybody knows those
things are potentially harmful, even fatal?

Individual risk assessment has to be accompanied by an enveloping culture of
safety in the sport and underpinned by a set of simple basic no-nonsense
enforced rules which are the backstop for everyone. It is not rocket
science.

Jane

PS I have only just got around to asking my physicist husband if rocket
science is hard - and disappointingly he says it isn't. He asked me in
return if being a brain surgeon means you are super human - no it doesn't -
it is nowhere near as difficult as General Practice! In our present state
of house renovation the most difficult thing at the moment for us is
plastering. So, instead of 'it is not rocket science' please read 'its not
plastering'.

Mike Sullivan · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 244

"Stephen and Jane" wrote in message @mid.individual.net...
>
> "Peter Ford" wrote in message
> >

snip

> PS I have only just got around to asking my physicist husband if rocket
> science is hard - and disappointingly he says it isn't. He asked me in
> return if being a brain surgeon means you are super human - no it
> doesn't - it is nowhere near as difficult as General Practice! In our
> present state of house renovation the most difficult thing at the moment
> for us is plastering. So, instead of 'it is not rocket science' please
> read 'its not plastering'.

I'll trade you plastering for electrical. I get it wrong on my house
and my car

Liz · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

On 5 Feb, 15:59, Carl Douglas wrote:
> carolinetu wrote:
>
> > Carl,
>
> > If your new friend would like to contact me, I am organising a capsize
> > drill (in a nice warm pool) on Sunday 9th March as part of a UKCC
> > Level 2 course, where I will be instructing the trainee coaches how to
> > teach the "straddle and paddle" method as well as buddy rescue, in
> > line with current ARA recommendations.
>
> > The trainee coaches will also be learning how to do a risk
> > assessment. The course materials for this have just been updated and
> > are very good in my opinion.

>
> > Caroline
>
> Thanks Caroline. I'll mention it to him when next we speak. However,
> with his water sports background he is probably as experienced in
> straddle & paddle as the best (or most often immersed?) of us.
>
> I'm glad we've got this change into the ARA safety documentation.

One of my biggest problems with the coaching 'structure' and paying
through the nose for these useless programs is the fact that once
you're through one of the courses you never receive any of the updated
stuff, never get any mailing on what recommended procedures may (or
may not) have changed etc.

I'm sure some folks in the ARA are trying to do the right things, BUT
there is a huge communication gap in getting that information out to
the individuals - and especially the individual coaches (who can make
so much difference at the ground level - until they're abolished due
to lack of formal qualifications!!)

Liz

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