U.S Military support of Scouting

Greg Brown · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

As many of you may know, in 1999 a lawsuit was filed to prevent the
Department of Defense from supporting Scouting, saying that it was a
violation of the separation of church and state. This lawsuit was
successful in March of 2005, when a Federal District Court declared
the 1972 statute that permitted this assistance as being
unconstitutional.

This case is now before U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit,
with the hopeful outcome being that the decision of the lower Federal
District Court will be overturned, and the important association
between the U.S. Military and the Boy Scouts will continue.

For the full story, visit HERE.

GregB
http://www.onlinescouts.org
An online source for Scouts and Scouters sharing their knowledge and
experiences. Join now for free!

Archived from group: rec>scouting>usa

ManMadeGod · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

"Greg Brown" wrote in message @4ax.com...
> As many of you may know, in 1999 a lawsuit was filed to prevent the
> Department of Defense from supporting Scouting, saying that it was a
> violation of the separation of church and state. This lawsuit was
> successful in March of 2005, when a Federal District Court declared
> the 1972 statute that permitted this assistance as being
> unconstitutional.
>
> This case is now before U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit,
> with the hopeful outcome being that the decision of the lower Federal
> District Court will be overturned, and the important association
> between the U.S. Military and the Boy Scouts will continue.

Our government cannot support religious organizations. Period.

Change your rules and remove the religious discrimination and brainwashing,
then you will be welcomed to our free society.

Otherwise, continue your cult organization that dictates what people should
or should not believe, but don't expect any of OUR tax dollars or support.

If an organization was started for boys that only allowed atheists and
non-believers, and they asked for government assistance, you clowns would be
the first ones to protest against it.

Deal with it.

RJ · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

Again, the boy scouts are not a religious group, just becuase we have
morals does not equte to religion. Take a poll and see just how many
"athiests" have discovered scouting then found out they were the ones
being brainwashed. Your telling me a 7 year old knows he's an athiest.
Come on, the constitution bans a national religion, not the freedom
from religion of any kind. You want to practice yours, great let me
practice mine.

Chimp · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 35

RJ wrote:
> Again, the boy scouts are not a religious group, just becuase we have
> morals does not equte to religion.

Quite right, morals do not equate to religion. But that the fact that
you have a religious membership test does make you a religious
organization. And BSA claimed to be a religious organization in
briefs it submitted to the Supreme Court in the Dale case.

> Take a poll and see just how many "athiests" have discovered
> scouting then found out they were the ones being brainwashed.
> Your telling me a 7 year old knows he's an athiest.

Some, yes. And plenty of 11-, 12-, 13-, 14-yr-olds do.

> Come on, the constitution bans a national religion, not the
> freedom from religion of any kind. You want to practice yours,
> great let me practice mine.

You _are_ free to practice yours. That is not under dispute. What
is disputed is whether the government has a right to side with
your religion, and to support your religious organization with
tax dollars.

Chimp

ManMadeGod · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

"RJ" wrote in message @g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Again, the boy scouts are not a religious group, just becuase we have
> morals does not equte to religion.

I don't consider any group that discriminates to have morals.

> Take a poll and see just how many
> "athiests" have discovered scouting then found out they were the ones
> being brainwashed.

Everyone is born non-believers, if a child is born into a muslem family, he
will most likely be brainwashed into the muslem belief, born into a
christian family, brainwashed christian, etc, etc..

> Your telling me a 7 year old knows he's an athiest.

Your telling me he knows there is a god? Only after your brainwashing.

> Come on, the constitution bans a national religion, not the freedom
> from religion of any kind. You want to practice yours, great let me
> practice mine.

Fine, practice your religion all you want, in the church or cult of your
choice, but don't look for government support or OUR tax dollars for it.

Thank you for proving my point.

J. Hugh Sullivan · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 24

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:55:53 -0500, "ManMadeGod"
wrote:

>
>"RJ" wrote in message
>@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Again, the boy scouts are not a religious group, just becuase we have
>> morals does not equte to religion.
>
>I don't consider any group that discriminates to have morals.
>
>> Take a poll and see just how many
>> "athiests" have discovered scouting then found out they were the ones
>> being brainwashed.
>
>Everyone is born non-believers, if a child is born into a muslem family, he
>will most likely be brainwashed into the muslem belief, born into a
>christian family, brainwashed christian, etc, etc..
>
>> Your telling me a 7 year old knows he's an athiest.

That's "you're", not "your".

Hugh

Fred Goodwin, CMA · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 23

[headers trimmed]

ManMadeGod wrote:

> Our government cannot support religious organizations. Period.

Would that mean that federal and state governments cannot give research
grants to private universities like SMU or Notre Dame?

Or that federal and state governments cannot grant tax breaks to those
same institutions? Or allow you to deduct from your taxable income
your donations to those non-profit institutions?

> Change your rules and remove the religious discrimination and
> brainwashing, then you will be welcomed to our free society.

So you require a volunteer organization to change its rules to fit
*your* biases, in order to be admitted to your "free" society? No
irony there, at all.

Would you also require the NAACP to admit avowed KKK members? Would
you require the Anti-Defamation League to admit Nazis?

Do you not believe the Constitution guarantees the right to associate
with whom one pleases?

Emma Pease · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 22

In article , Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
> [headers trimmed]
>
> ManMadeGod wrote:
>
>> Our government cannot support religious organizations. Period.

To be more exact it cannot give special support to religious
organizations for religious purposes. For example, a religious
organization coordinating a food kitchen that does not discriminate on
religious grounds and does not use it for the purpose of
indoctrination can receive government funding for that kitchen.

> Would that mean that federal and state governments cannot give research
> grants to private universities like SMU or Notre Dame?

Depends on what it is for. Note that

1. SMU and Notre Dame hire people of all faiths and none.

2. The direct money won't be going towards religious purposes

3. When calculating the indirect rate, the university costs related to
the religious purpose of the university (as well as costs like
graduation ceremonies or fundraising events) are almost certainly
excluded (the cost of maintaining the Stanford Church for instance is
definitely excluded here at Stanford). Indirect is the surcharge for
things like maintaining the research buildings, administrative staff,
etc. that help support the research and researchers.

> Or that federal and state governments cannot grant tax breaks to those
> same institutions? Or allow you to deduct from your taxable income
> your donations to those non-profit institutions?

Well there is some arguments about that but all non-profits get the
same benefits (admittedly considering that some religious leaders take
advantage of their churches not having to file tax returns and use it
to live a life of extreme luxury, perhaps having them file a tax
return might be an idea [non-churches have to file even though they
are exempt as charities from paying most taxes]).

In addition all religious groups get the same status whether they are
theistic or not.

>> Change your rules and remove the religious discrimination and
>> brainwashing, then you will be welcomed to our free society.
>
> So you require a volunteer organization to change its rules to fit
> *your* biases, in order to be admitted to your "free" society? No
> irony there, at all.

Only if they want to get special government support

> Would you also require the NAACP to admit avowed KKK members? Would
> you require the Anti-Defamation League to admit Nazis?

1. I wasn't aware that being a member of the KKK or being a Nazi was a
religious position.

2. I wasn't aware that the NAACP or the Anti-Defamation league
received special government support.

> Do you not believe the Constitution guarantees the right to associate
> with whom one pleases?

Yes, but it doesn't say the government has to give special help for
you to do so.

Emma

--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

Brian Westley · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 134

"Fred Goodwin, CMA" writes:
>[headers trimmed]

>ManMadeGod wrote:

>> Our government cannot support religious organizations. Period.

>Would that mean that federal and state governments cannot give research
>grants to private universities like SMU or Notre Dame?

Hey Fred, do those grants exclude, say, atheists, the way you
insist Blattman Elementary School exclude atheists from the
Cub Scout Pack they charter (or chartered, if the BSA is true
to its word, which I doubt).

>Or that federal and state governments cannot grant tax breaks to those
>same institutions? Or allow you to deduct from your taxable income
>your donations to those non-profit institutions?

Hey Fred, are these tax breaks that are ONLY available to these
religious institutions? Apparently not, because the supreme
court ruled in the Texas Monthly case that a tax break that is
ONLY available for religious use is unconstitutional.

>> Change your rules and remove the religious discrimination and
>> brainwashing, then you will be welcomed to our free society.

>So you require a volunteer organization to change its rules to fit
>*your* biases, in order to be admitted to your "free" society? No
>irony there, at all.

>Would you also require the NAACP to admit avowed KKK members? Would
>you require the Anti-Defamation League to admit Nazis?

Do either of these organizations have public schools owning
and operating their clubs?

>Do you not believe the Constitution guarantees the right to associate
>with whom one pleases?

Public schools can't run private, discriminatory clubs.

By the way, Blattman is still listed as the chartering org. of
Pack 2003, hypocrite.

---
Merlyn LeRoy

ManMadeGod · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

"J. Hugh Sullivan" wrote in message @news1.news.adelphia.net...
> On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:55:53 -0500, "ManMadeGod"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"RJ" wrote in message
>>@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> Again, the boy scouts are not a religious group, just becuase we have
>>> morals does not equte to religion.
>>
>>I don't consider any group that discriminates to have morals.
>>
>>> Take a poll and see just how many
>>> "athiests" have discovered scouting then found out they were the ones
>>> being brainwashed.
>>
>>Everyone is born non-believers, if a child is born into a muslem family,
>>he
>>will most likely be brainwashed into the muslem belief, born into a
>>christian family, brainwashed christian, etc, etc..
>>
>>> Your telling me a 7 year old knows he's an athiest.
>
> That's "you're", not "your".

Excuuuuuuuuuuse Meeeeeeeeee!

Would you like to contribute to the discussion, or just play spell-checker?

ShellStockTrader · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 7

"Brian Westley" wrote in message @corp.supernews.com...
> "Fred Goodwin, CMA" writes:
>>[headers trimmed]
>
>>ManMadeGod wrote:
>
>>> Our government cannot support religious organizations. Period.
>
>>Would that mean that federal and state governments cannot give research
>>grants to private universities like SMU or Notre Dame?
>
> Hey Fred, do those grants exclude, say, atheists, the way you
> insist Blattman Elementary School exclude atheists from the
> Cub Scout Pack they charter (or chartered, if the BSA is true
> to its word, which I doubt).
>
>>Or that federal and state governments cannot grant tax breaks to those
>>same institutions? Or allow you to deduct from your taxable income
>>your donations to those non-profit institutions?
>
> Hey Fred, are these tax breaks that are ONLY available to these
> religious institutions? Apparently not, because the supreme
> court ruled in the Texas Monthly case that a tax break that is
> ONLY available for religious use is unconstitutional.

Apparently, George (IQ 80) Bush, thought he could override the constitution,
so he signed executive orders (bypassing congress) to pump government money
into religious coffers. Fortunately, Bush was never a boy-scout, nor was he
born in Texas. His DWI records are from Connecticut and Maine. His Cocaine
habit hit the fan at the same time his father and the republican party
decided to mold him into a potential candidate for office. There is ample
evidence that he was still snorting cocaine while govenor of Texas, while
being groomed for president/.

J. Hugh Sullivan · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 24

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 00:05:10 -0500, "ManMadeGod"
wrote:

>
>"J. Hugh Sullivan" wrote in message
>@news1.news.adelphia.net...
>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:55:53 -0500, "ManMadeGod"
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"RJ" wrote in message
>>>@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Again, the boy scouts are not a religious group, just becuase we have
>>>> morals does not equte to religion.
>>>
>>>I don't consider any group that discriminates to have morals.
>>>
>>>> Take a poll and see just how many
>>>> "athiests" have discovered scouting then found out they were the ones
>>>> being brainwashed.
>>>
>>>Everyone is born non-believers, if a child is born into a muslem family,
>>>he
>>>will most likely be brainwashed into the muslem belief, born into a
>>>christian family, brainwashed christian, etc, etc..
>>>
>>>> Your telling me a 7 year old knows he's an athiest.
>>
>> That's "you're", not "your".
>
>Excuuuuuuuuuuse Meeeeeeeeee!
>
>Would you like to contribute to the discussion, or just play spell-checker?

If you're too ignorant to spell or remember your name I'm not
interested.

Get an education and come back.

Hugh

Paul S. Wolf · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

On 2/13/2006 12:05 AM, ManMadeGod wrote:
> "J. Hugh Sullivan" wrote in message
> @news1.news.adelphia.net...
>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:55:53 -0500, "ManMadeGod"
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "RJ" wrote in message
>>> @g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Again, the boy scouts are not a religious group, just becuase we have
>>>> morals does not equte to religion.
>>> I don't consider any group that discriminates to have morals.
>>>
>>>> Take a poll and see just how many
>>>> "athiests" have discovered scouting then found out they were the ones
>>>> being brainwashed.
>>> Everyone is born non-believers, if a child is born into a muslem family,
>>> he
>>> will most likely be brainwashed into the muslem belief, born into a
>>> christian family, brainwashed christian, etc, etc..
>>>
>>>> Your telling me a 7 year old knows he's an athiest.
>> That's "you're", not "your".
>
> Excuuuuuuuuuuse Meeeeeeeeee!
>
> Would you like to contribute to the discussion, or just play spell-checker?

Actually, why don't you take this off-topic discussion to
rec.scouting.issues, where it belongs?

--
Yours in Scouting,
Paul S. Wolf, P.E. mailto:pwolf@usscouts.org
***********************************************
Advancement/Awards/Safety Webmaster
U.S. Scouting Service Project, Inc.
http://www.usscouts.org/start.asp
©2005 All Rights Reserved
***********************************************

Stan · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 12

> Our government cannot support religious organizations. Period.
>
> Change your rules and remove the religious discrimination and brainwashing,
> then you will be welcomed to our free society.
>
> Otherwise, continue your cult organization that dictates what people should
> or should not believe, but don't expect any of OUR tax dollars or support.

Sorry, but an organization that expects its members to adhere to the
fundamental AMERICAN principles of "One Nation, under God" and "In God
We Trust" is not discriminating against anybody. Maybe the real
problem are those who feel these fundamental AMERICAN values don't
apply to them.

Naraht · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

One Nation, under god doesn't show up in the pledge of allegiance until
1954 (after the Pledge being just fine without it since the 1920s. In
God We Trust doesn't show up on any US currency until after the US
Civil War.

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