Sport boat?

martin.schoon · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

Simple question:

What is a sport boat?
or
What is the 'definition' of sport boat?

Looking at them 'from a distance' I think I have gathered
that a J 24 is not a sport boat but both J 80 and Melges 24
are. How come? Because they plane more readily?

How small can a sport boat be without becoming a dinghy?
How big? Is a Melges 30 still regarded as a sport boat?

Could a multuhull be a sport boat or is that too blasphemous?

Cheers,

--
Martin Schöön "Problems worthy of attack
show their worth by hitting back."
Piet Hein

Archived from group: rec>boats

DSK · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

Martin Schöön wrote:
> Simple question:
>
> What is a sport boat?
> or
> What is the 'definition' of sport boat?
>

There are a number of rules of thumb that some clubs &
regatta organizers use to decide what is & what is not a
sportboat, but so far there is not really a concise
technical definition.

> Looking at them 'from a distance' I think I have gathered
> that a J 24 is not a sport boat but both J 80 and Melges 24
> are. How come? Because they plane more readily?
>

J-24 SA/D=22.6 D/L=145
J-80 SA/D=26.6 D/L=122
Melges 24 SA/D=32.1 D/L=73

> How small can a sport boat be without becoming a dinghy?

I think part of the definition is that it has to be
self-righting, hence the bulb keels.

> How big? Is a Melges 30 still regarded as a sport boat?
>

Definitely yes!

> Could a multuhull be a sport boat or is that too blasphemous?
>

I dunno about blasphemy, but why would you want to race
against multis against monos? There only be a small amount
of fun in winning, like defeating a ten year old at chess or
judo; and imagine the ignominy of (don't even think it!) one
might lose.

If the performance ratios were the main guide, then most
multihulls would easily qualify IMHO.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Wayne.B · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 390

On 27 Aug 2006 23:10:14 +0200, martin.schoon@gmail.com (Martin Schöön)
wrote:

>Simple question:
>
>What is a sport boat?
>or
>What is the 'definition' of sport boat?

Simple question, not quite as easy to answer.

The vast majority of true sport boats have sprit poles, large
asymmetric spinnakers, and are quick to reach planing speeds when off
the wind. Being able to plane implies a high ratio of sail area to
displacement of course, but it would be difficult to come up with a
hard number cutoff.

Regarding sport boats vs dinghys, sport boats have at least a minimal
cabin and sleeping accomodations in all of the cases that I'm aware
of. Sport boats will also have a ballast keel but that will not keep
them from capsizing if hard pressed or mis-handled.

Walt · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 19

Wayne.B wrote:
> (Martin Schöön) wrote:

>>What is a sport boat?
>>or
>>What is the 'definition' of sport boat?
>
>
> Simple question, not quite as easy to answer.
>
> The vast majority of true sport boats have sprit poles, large
> asymmetric spinnakers, and are quick to reach planing speeds when off
> the wind. Being able to plane implies a high ratio of sail area to
> displacement of course, but it would be difficult to come up with a
> hard number cutoff.
>
> Regarding sport boats vs dinghys, sport boats have at least a minimal
> cabin and sleeping accomodations in all of the cases that I'm aware
> of. Sport boats will also have a ballast keel but that will not keep
> them from capsizing if hard pressed or mis-handled.

How about this for a working definition:

"A monohull keelboat that's capable of planing."

//Walt

martin.schoon · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

DSK writes:

> Martin Schöön wrote:

> > Looking at them 'from a distance' I think I have gathered
> > that a J 24 is not a sport boat but both J 80 and Melges 24
> > are. How come? Because they plane more readily?
> >
>
> J-24 SA/D=22.6 D/L=145
> J-80 SA/D=26.6 D/L=122
> Melges 24 SA/D=32.1 D/L=73
>
Not a huge difference between the J boats I think.
>
> > How small can a sport boat be without becoming a dinghy?
>
> I think part of the definition is that it has to be self-righting,
> hence the bulb keels.
>
Ah, that rules out the J-24: Back in 1982 I met a guy who told me
that everyone who told me it was impossible to capsize monos
didn't know what they were talking about. He had hugged a keel
of a J-24 after a violent gybe. The J-24 stayed 180 untill helped
back on its feet.
>
> > Could a multuhull be a sport boat or is that too blasphemous?
> >
>
> I dunno about blasphemy, but why would you want to race against multis
> against monos? There only be a small amount of fun in winning, like
> defeating a ten year old at chess or judo; and imagine the ignominy of
> (don't even think it!) one might lose.

You are reading something into the question that isn't there.
>
> If the performance ratios were the main guide, then most multihulls
> would easily qualify IMHO.
>
> Fresh Breezes- Doug King
>

--
Martin Schöön "Problems worthy of attack
show their worth by hitting back."
Piet Hein

martin.schoon · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

DSK writes:

> Martin Schöön wrote:

I forgot one thing in my previous response.
Are the numbers below based on empty boat weight or sailing displacement
with crew?
>
> J-24 SA/D=22.6 D/L=145
> J-80 SA/D=26.6 D/L=122
> Melges 24 SA/D=32.1 D/L=73
>

--
Martin Schöön "Problems worthy of attack
show their worth by hitting back."
Piet Hein

Wayne.B · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 390

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:56:35 -0400, Walt
wrote:

>How about this for a working definition:
>
>"A monohull keelboat that's capable of planing."

Doesn't work for me, there are lots of monohull keelboats that are
capable of planing under certain conditions. I used to race on a B-29
that was right on the cusp of almost being a sport boat but it really
wasn't. Downwind with 20+ kts it was one exciting ride however, and
we once planed at 17 to 18 kts for over 2 miles. The B-29 carried a
conventional spinnaker pole which enabled it to go lower on a
spinnaker run than a true sport boat, but also at lower speed.

Wayne.B · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 390

On 28 Aug 2006 18:33:56 +0200, martin.schoon@gmail.com (Martin Schöön)
wrote:

>I met a guy who told me
>that everyone who told me it was impossible to capsize monos
>didn't know what they were talking about. He had hugged a keel
>of a J-24 after a violent gybe. The J-24 stayed 180 untill helped
>back on its feet.

There are any number of J-24s that have been capsized and sunk,
including several at one time in the same race. I once knew a guy who
had turtled one on Long Island Sound. It stayed afloat for a while
but eventually the cabin air escaped through the sink drain and it
sank.

martin.schoon · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

Wayne.B writes:

> had turtled one on Long Island Sound. It stayed afloat for a while
> but eventually the cabin air escaped through the sink drain and it
> sank.

I will point that out whenever people complain about the creature
comforts of my boat Smile

--
Martin Schöön "Problems worthy of attack
show their worth by hitting back."
Piet Hein

DSK · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

>>Martin Schöön wrote:
>
> I forgot one thing in my previous response.
> Are the numbers below based on empty boat weight or sailing displacement
> with crew?
>

Empty, I believe.
There's a sportboat forum at 'Sailing Anarchy' and they
argue all the time about what is and what isn't a sportboat,
so I'm not sure there is any real definition. Not even the
guys who design them can reach full agreement, apparently.

But I will say, I know a sportboat when I see one! Wink

>>How about this for a working definition:
>>
>>"A monohull keelboat that's capable of planing."
>

Wayne.B wrote:
> Doesn't work for me, there are lots of monohull keelboats that are
> capable of planing under certain conditions.

Yes, that's a very large playing field.

> .... I used to race on a B-29
> that was right on the cusp of almost being a sport boat but it really
> wasn't. Downwind with 20+ kts it was one exciting ride however, and
> we once planed at 17 to 18 kts for over 2 miles. The B-29 carried a
> conventional spinnaker pole which enabled it to go lower on a
> spinnaker run than a true sport boat, but also at lower speed.
>

It's very tricky to get the angles right, as I'm sure Martin
S will agree. You can always go faster thru the water by
heating up, but that doesn't necessarily get you higher VMG.
It is a lot of fun though!

I sailed a Johnson 18, a centerboard sprit boat that could
also plane upwind (something very very few keelboats can
achieve) and the asymmetric was a total blast. I have sailed
a number of boats with a conventional spinnaker since then,
but I'm not planning on getting serious about another
one-design without it. It's just way too much bang for the buck.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Wayne.B · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 390

On 27 Aug 2006 23:10:14 +0200, martin.schoon@gmail.com (Martin Schöön)
wrote:
>Simple question:
>
>What is a sport boat?
>or
>What is the 'definition' of sport boat?
>
>Looking at them 'from a distance' I think I have gathered
>that a J 24 is not a sport boat but both J 80 and Melges 24
>are. How come? Because they plane more readily?
>
>How small can a sport boat be without becoming a dinghy?
>How big? Is a Melges 30 still regarded as a sport boat?

Speaking of sport boats, the Melges 24 world championships are being
held in Hyeres, France this week, in windy mistral conditions. Some
good pictures here:

http://www.melges24.com/photogalleries.asp?year=2006&event=WorldChampionship

http://tinyurl.com/rmagw

My oldest son is crewing on the boat in picture # 3 and they are doing
fairly well. Well known sailor Dave Ullman is in picture # 10,
blasting through a wave with a lot of wind.

Ryk · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:56:35 -0400, in message

Walt wrote:

>Wayne.B wrote:
>> (Martin Schöön) wrote:
>
>>>What is a sport boat?
>>>or
>>>What is the 'definition' of sport boat?
>>
>>
>> Simple question, not quite as easy to answer.
>>
>> The vast majority of true sport boats have sprit poles, large
>> asymmetric spinnakers, and are quick to reach planing speeds when off
>> the wind. Being able to plane implies a high ratio of sail area to
>> displacement of course, but it would be difficult to come up with a
>> hard number cutoff.
>>
>> Regarding sport boats vs dinghys, sport boats have at least a minimal
>> cabin and sleeping accomodations in all of the cases that I'm aware
>> of. Sport boats will also have a ballast keel but that will not keep
>> them from capsizing if hard pressed or mis-handled.
>
>How about this for a working definition:
>
>"A monohull keelboat that's capable of planing."

That would make a Shark a sport boat....

Ryk

martin.schoon · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

Harry Krause writes:

>
> A sport boat, like a sports car, is a vehicle so small and tight that
> only a 16-year-old can get laid in it without needing to visit a
> chiropractor afterwards.
>
Very good Smile

--
Martin Schöön "Problems worthy of attack
show their worth by hitting back."
Piet Hein

DSK · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

> Wayne.B wrote:
>>Speaking of sport boats, the Melges 24 world championships are being
>>held in Hyeres, France this week, in windy mistral conditions. Some
>>good pictures here:
>>
>>http://www.melges24.com/photogalleries.asp?year=2006&event=WorldChampionship
>>

Dang that looks like fun!
I've considered getting one of these.

>>http://tinyurl.com/rmagw
>>
>>My oldest son is crewing on the boat in picture # 3 and they are doing
>>fairly well.

The 505 sailor? He sure gets around.

I used to race Dave Ullman in 470s back in the old days.
Very good sailor and a nice guy.

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
> Good luck to your son - hope he does well.
>

Ditto

> Kind of reminds me of the old days with Town class sailboats in heavy
> weather. Lots of memories of racing around Marblehead in those boats.
>
> Hmmm - I need to start my life over again I think. :>)
>

Never too late, they say.

> Not to go completely off the subject of sport boats, I was catching up
> on my reading the other day and the particular article was about the
> Volvo Round the World race and the hi-tech sailboats they are using.
>
> Frankly, I was stunned at the technology being used in those boats.

They really go, too. Somewhere there is a promo video, never
widely published although I can't imagine why, of a then-new
Whitbread 60 pulling two water skiers. These vew VOR-70s are
a lot more powerful and faster in a wider range of
conditions. They need to get the bugs ot of that canting
keel though.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Wayne.B · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 390

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:15:20 -0400, DSK wrote:

>>>My oldest son is crewing on the boat in picture # 3 and they are doing
>>>fairly well.
>
>The 505 sailor? He sure gets around.

He certainly does, and the old man is slightly envious at times, but
he got a *much* earlier start than I did. We took him on his first
sailing cruise when he was 6 weeks old and it apparently made an
impression on him. When he was about 5 y/o he got smacked in the head
by the boom on a friends J24 and that definitely made an impression,
but nothing that couldn't be fixed with a few stitches in the
emergency room. His mother was not amused.

He was writing magazine articles for Sailing World while still in
college and has made a lot of contacts over the years.

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