Long tapered leaders

Tom Nakashima · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 166

Has anyone had success turning over flies with long tapered
leaders?
Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material. I'm thinking however the leaders don't
necessarily have to be knotless.
Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?
Keep in mind I do want to use 18" tippet material.
thanks,
-tom

Archived from group: rec>outdoors>fishing>fly

Dave LaCourse · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 341

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:05:33 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

>Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
>5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
>18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
>5x tippet material.

Why do you want to go to 12' leaders, Tom.

rw · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 209

Tom Nakashima wrote:
> Has anyone had success turning over flies with long tapered
> leaders?
> Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
> 5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
> 18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
> 5x tippet material. I'm thinking however the leaders don't
> necessarily have to be knotless.
> Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?
> Keep in mind I do want to use 18" tippet material.
> thanks,
> -tom
>
>

I don't like using a leader that's much longer than my rod, or at least
not longer than I can stow by wrapping it around the reel, with the fly
hooked into a convenient guide. I don't want the line/leader connection
to get past the tip guide.

In rare spring-creek conditions it might be necessary, but not usually.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Larry L · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 213

"Tom Nakashima" wrote

> Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?

Add more BUTT to the 9 footer you like, don't change the taper or tippet
( there is a slight chance that you will need to make the added butt
stiffer, too )

Larry L · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 213

"rw" wrote

>
> In rare spring-creek conditions it might be necessary, but not usually.
>

My 'typical' spring creek leader is about 10 foot including tippet ....
sometimes I go to 7 foot or less, to get back into undercut banks and
overhanging grass ..... the only time I go longer is if it is impossible
to cast from any place except directly down stream and conditions favor
'spooky' fish ( bright sun ) .... then I cut off the taper of my standard
leader, blood knot a new one onto the long BUTT left behind, put down the
fish in question anyway, then revert back to a standard leader by cutting
off and saving the 'new leader' and re-tying on the reserved 'old leader'
..... and move on

P.S. I never buy a bright colored fly line for spring creek use ... if
your line is fluorescent orange you may need an extra long leader to
overcome that handicap

Tom Nakashima · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 166

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message @4ax.com...
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:05:33 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
> wrote:
>
>>Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
>>5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
>>18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
>>5x tippet material.
>
> Why do you want to go to 12' leaders, Tom.

Yes,
I've been asked that many times. I can throw 9' leaders with a nice
turnover of the fly, and now I would like to try 12' leaders. For one,
see if I can turn over a #16 fly at 12' 18", and if I ever needed to do
so to leader shy trout.
I have a feeling you're going to tell me, that would never be the case.
-tom

Tom Nakashima · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 166

"rw" wrote in message $0$14081$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
> Tom Nakashima wrote:
>> Has anyone had success turning over flies with long tapered
>> leaders?
>> Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
>> 5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
>> 18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
>> 5x tippet material. I'm thinking however the leaders don't
>> necessarily have to be knotless.
>> Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?
>> Keep in mind I do want to use 18" tippet material.
>> thanks,
>> -tom
>>
>>
>
> I don't like using a leader that's much longer than my rod, or at least
> not longer than I can stow by wrapping it around the reel, with the fly
> hooked into a convenient guide. I don't want the line/leader connection to
> get past the tip guide.
>
> In rare spring-creek conditions it might be necessary, but not usually.
>
> --
> Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Yes, I have read the same about the leader not much longer than the rod.
I'm currently throwing the 9' leaders 18" tippet with an 8' bamboo fly-rod.
-tom

asadi · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 54

"Tom Nakashima" wrote in message $4ua$1@news.Stanford.EDU...
>
> "Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
> @4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:05:33 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
>>>5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
>>>18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
>>>5x tippet material.
>>
>> Why do you want to go to 12' leaders, Tom.
>
> Yes,
> I've been asked that many times. I can throw 9' leaders with a nice
> turnover of the fly, and now I would like to try 12' leaders. For one,
> see if I can turn over a #16 fly at 12' 18", and if I ever needed to do
> so to leader shy trout.
> I have a feeling you're going to tell me, that would never be the case.
> -tom
>

Now tom, be honest....it has nothing to do with shy trout....you just want
to fish with a longer leader!

good luck!

john

Larry L · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 213

"Tom Nakashima" wrote

> Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?

Tom,

I just remembered that RIO makes a very nice 15 foot ( I think, maybe 16 )
leader they market as "Spring Creek" .... I've used it on Hebgen ( tougher
conditions than most on spring creeks ) and it handles very nicely straight
from the package ...

Dave LaCourse · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 341

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:52:53 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

>I have a feeling you're going to tell me, that would never be the case.

No, you will surely run into leader shy fish. I just don't think you
will need a 12 foot leader for them, however. I'll get flamed for
saying this, but a 7 1/2 foot 5x leader with 18 inches of 6x
fluorocarbon tippet would work just as well. Or even a 6x leader with
7x FC. FC sinks, true enough, but I have had no trouble floating
small flies with it, and because it does sink I think that is a
positive thing. Some will say that FC is too stiff to turn over a
fly, but I have never had that trouble.

Dave

Lazarus Cooke · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 46

In article , Dave LaCourse
wrote:

>
> Why do you want to go to 12' leaders, Tom.
>
>
On the one hand I think that this is the crucial question. there's a
pressure on us to fish longer leaders, or to cast longer lines, as
thought the whole business was some sort of competition. (which, imho,
it should be with the fish, but not with other people).

But the truth is often that the best line to cast is somewhere around
ten yards, and the best length of leader is often around nine feet.

On the other hand, I rarely actually measure my leader. I start with a
tapered cast one size above the tippet size I'm going to be using
(normally 3 lb), tie on a few feet of tippet, and when that's wrecked I
keep cutting and tying until the whole rig is clearly useless and I
have to start again.

I imagine that is roughly what a lot of us do.

On the other hand, I quite frequently find that I'm fishing a twelve or
fourteen foot cast not because I believe in it for any a priori
reason, but simply because it fishes better on the waters I'm on.

A lot of the time I'm on glassy, gin-clear chalk streams (spring
creeks) - in particular the Itchen, in Hampshire, england.

There, the one thing that will spell disaster is drag.

So what I'm actually seeking to do is have my tippet fall in a bit of a
bedraggle, that may unwind itself on the surface of the stream and give
just a few seconds for my fly to drift without drag over the lie where
my fish is feeding.

thus twelve to fourteen feet may give me a poor-looking cast, but may
also catch me a fish.

Lazarus

PRM · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

"Tom Nakashima" wrote in message $srd$1@news.Stanford.EDU...
> Has anyone had success turning over flies with long tapered
> leaders?
> Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
> 5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
> 18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
> 5x tippet material. I'm thinking however the leaders don't
> necessarily have to be knotless.
> Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?
> Keep in mind I do want to use 18" tippet material.
> thanks,
> -tom
>
>

Tom:

More of a lurker than a regular here, but I think you have two good answers.
LarryL says to add to the butt of your 9' leader. I regularly fish leaders
of 12' and this is very good advice.

Hand tied leaders turn over much better than tapered (knots act as power
transmitters), so start with 3' of big stuff, go to 12" of the next size
down, then go down in 6" increments until you get to the section just above
the tippet. Use 12-16" there, just so you won't have to change it so often
as you lose little bits changing tippets. A simple fix it to add 3' of the
next diameter of line above what you are using to the butt of your leader.

Lazarus says that the reason to fish longer leaders is to create a "clump"
of tippet to defeat drag. This is the real reason to fish longer leaders.
If you do not have to deal with complex drag patterns, go as short as you
can. If you do have to deal with these situations, go long, realizing that
it may not look pretty but it will work. BTW, make sure to cast far enough
upstream to let the "kinks" in the "clump" of the leader to work itself out
before passing over the strike area.

Tight lines,

Patrick

Lazarus Cooke · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 46

In article , PRM
wrote:

> If you do have to deal with these situations, go long, realizing that
> it may not look pretty but it will work. BTW, make sure to cast far enough
> upstream to let the "kinks" in the "clump" of the leader to work itself out
> before passing over the strike area.

Many years ago I had casting lessons from the Hardy professional, Andy
Murray. One of the things he taught me for dryfly upstream casting on
glassy water is to give your rod a good sideways wiggle as the line is
flying out. If you get the timing right on this it will lay your tippet
in a zig-zag pattern that will straighten as the stream pulls at it,
but will leave the fly un-dragged.

Lazarus

Larry L · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 213

"Lazarus Cooke" wrote

>
> Many years ago I had casting lessons from the Hardy professional, Andy
> Murray. One of the things he taught me for dryfly upstream casting on
> glassy water is to give your rod a good sideways wiggle as the line is
> flying out. If you get the timing right on this it will lay your tippet
> in a zig-zag pattern that will straighten as the stream pulls at it,
> but will leave the fly un-dragged.
>

casting slack ... in the wiggle cast you mention, or various pile casts ...
is a key to difficult dry fly waters ( ones with complex currents over weeds
and such )

The ability to pile up the tippet to absorb some 'drag' greatly increases
success on some waters but like all this stuff we must practice ... try to
put the fly on the pie plate in the yard with lots of tippet slack .. then
without same. Add learning to throw curves around obstacles part way to
the plate and/ or at the end. It's possible to throw slack into the
middle of the line with the leader still turning over well also etc.

One cast I learned a few years back is useful if emerging weeds are between
you and the fish, but he is just inches on the other side. The weeds keep
the line/ leader from flowing downstream and if you cast normally ( turned
over leader ) drag is instant. Try forcing a cast HARD and fast right into
the weeds ... they will absorb the force keeping the 'spat' from scaring our
prey and the end of the tippet will travel a little farther, coming down
well after the line ( remember you cast like you were trying to bury the
line ) in a nasty pile just past the weeds ... viola, fish on ( learned this
on Hot Creek where such weeds are common and wading to get a better angle,
highly frowned upon )

This slack where it helps stuff is partly leader construction, but mainly
just 'bad casting' ... on purpose

Conan The Librarian · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 22

On Feb 8, 6:07 pm, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:

> [little snip]
>
> On the other hand, I quite frequently find that I'm fishing a twelve or
> fourteen foot cast not because I believe in it for any a priori
> reason, but simply because it fishes better on the waters I'm on.
>
> A lot of the time I'm on glassy, gin-clear chalk streams (spring
> creeks) - in particular the Itchen, in Hampshire, england.
>
> There, the one thing that will spell disaster is drag.
>
> So what I'm actually seeking to do is have my tippet fall in a bit of a
> bedraggle, that may unwind itself on the surface of the stream and give
> just a few seconds for my fly to drift without drag over the lie where
> my fish is feeding.
>
> thus twelve to fourteen feet may give me a poor-looking cast, but may
> also catch me a fish.

This thread has been interesting for me. The fish in my home
waters (mostly Guadalupe bass and sunfish) aren't particularly leader-
shy, so I'm usually more concerned with simply getting a leader to
turn the fly over.

When I visited western NC and the Smokies, I found that using a
short leader (less than rod length) worked best for dealing with the
overgrowth and tight quarters. When I met up with Wolfgang on an open
stretch of the Little River, he handed me a rod with about a 12'
leader (is that right, Wolfgang?) and told me to give that a try.

To my eyes, my casts looked horrible; the leader landed in a pile
each time. But, the fish seemed more than happy to jump all over the
fly. Due to the slack, I missed some fish (and even had one fish that
I had "missed" somehow wind up on the end of my line after I finally
got all the slack in). But I had better luck when I followed
Wolfgang's advice and lengthened the leader on my own rig and stopped
worrying about how "pretty" my casts were.

I still struggle when I've got a leader much longer than the rod,
but I've been playing around with it more ever since that trip, and
when conditions permit, I'll definitely fish a longer leader.

Chuck Vance (now if I could just learn to throw slack line on
purpose)

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