Dry instructor award - wealth warning

Christopher Anton · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 190

The UKCC levels 1 and 2 indoor rowing awards are going throught their final
stages at the moment. Once they are ready then the ARA will not be running
the dry instructor's award any more. I'm sure that I needn't tell you that
the new awards are going to be considerably more expensive. In fact the
Level 2 award is going to be a similar price to the water rowing award. Yes
I'll say that again in case you think I've completely lost my marbles - the
level 2 indoor rowing award will cost you plenty.

I sometimes wonder what planet I'm on as the hierarchy seen oblivious to the
problems being caused and it seemed to be a complete surprise that over a
hundred were awaiting assessment in the Thames region alone. The line is
always that there are grants available - true there are but not universally
100% and nothing can repay the immense amount of resources of time required
to complete the UKCC. Of the 264 candidates in 2006, 92 have passed and of
the 343 in 2007 49 have passed. They have, of course up to 2 years and more
will probably pass yet, but to compare there were 492 IA candidates in 2005
and almost all of them passed.

It is also always said that the IA didn't make you confident to coach. That
might be the case if you're a parent or outsider new to the sport, but the
vast majority of volunteer coaches in clubs are not like that, they are
people of long rowing experience who have come to the end of their rowing
careers. All we're doing now is recycling the tax payers' money in grants
via the ARA to enrich the UKCC and time-impoverish all our willing
volunteers. Mad hatter's tea party anyone...

Archived from group: rec>sport>rowing

Martin Gill · Joined: 03 Nov 2007 Posts: 2

Christopher Anton wrote:
> The UKCC levels 1 and 2 indoor rowing awards are going throught their final
> stages at the moment. Once they are ready then the ARA will not be running
> the dry instructor's award any more. I'm sure that I needn't tell you that
> the new awards are going to be considerably more expensive. In fact the
> Level 2 award is going to be a similar price to the water rowing award. Yes
> I'll say that again in case you think I've completely lost my marbles - the
> level 2 indoor rowing award will cost you plenty.
>
> I sometimes wonder what planet I'm on as the hierarchy seen oblivious to the
> problems being caused and it seemed to be a complete surprise that over a
> hundred were awaiting assessment in the Thames region alone. The line is
> always that there are grants available - true there are but not universally
> 100% and nothing can repay the immense amount of resources of time required
> to complete the UKCC. Of the 264 candidates in 2006, 92 have passed and of
> the 343 in 2007 49 have passed. They have, of course up to 2 years and more
> will probably pass yet, but to compare there were 492 IA candidates in 2005
> and almost all of them passed.
>
> It is also always said that the IA didn't make you confident to coach. That
> might be the case if you're a parent or outsider new to the sport, but the
> vast majority of volunteer coaches in clubs are not like that, they are
> people of long rowing experience who have come to the end of their rowing
> careers. All we're doing now is recycling the tax payers' money in grants
> via the ARA to enrich the UKCC and time-impoverish all our willing
> volunteers. Mad hatter's tea party anyone...
>
>
Chris,

Is the backlog in assessments due to the lack of assessors (another call
on time and money?) or lack of inclination?

Are there any figures about the participation/pass rates for the old
Bronze Award? The fact that the IA assessment was actually carried out
on the course meant everyone actually did the assessment, and usually
passed (but that is a topic for another thread). The delayed assessments
tend to mean that people don't get round to them.

However, I do fully agree with your comments about the financial burden
that the UKCC scheme has brought in - I looked into the cost of
"harmonising" my Bronze Award with the new level 3 award and was
somewhat suprised to see that it would cost more than the origional
award course did, for half of the time.

Carl Douglas · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 93

Martin Gill wrote:
> Christopher Anton wrote:
>
>> The UKCC levels 1 and 2 indoor rowing awards are going throught their
>> final stages at the moment. Once they are ready then the ARA will not
>> be running the dry instructor's award any more. I'm sure that I
>> needn't tell you that the new awards are going to be considerably more
>> expensive. In fact the Level 2 award is going to be a similar price to
>> the water rowing award. Yes I'll say that again in case you think I've
>> completely lost my marbles - the level 2 indoor rowing award will cost
>> you plenty.
>>
>> I sometimes wonder what planet I'm on as the hierarchy seen oblivious
>> to the problems being caused and it seemed to be a complete surprise
>> that over a hundred were awaiting assessment in the Thames region
>> alone. The line is always that there are grants available - true there
>> are but not universally 100% and nothing can repay the immense amount
>> of resources of time required to complete the UKCC. Of the 264
>> candidates in 2006, 92 have passed and of the 343 in 2007 49 have
>> passed. They have, of course up to 2 years and more will probably pass
>> yet, but to compare there were 492 IA candidates in 2005 and almost
>> all of them passed.
>>
>> It is also always said that the IA didn't make you confident to coach.
>> That might be the case if you're a parent or outsider new to the
>> sport, but the vast majority of volunteer coaches in clubs are not
>> like that, they are people of long rowing experience who have come to
>> the end of their rowing careers. All we're doing now is recycling the
>> tax payers' money in grants via the ARA to enrich the UKCC and
>> time-impoverish all our willing volunteers. Mad hatter's tea party
>> anyone...
>>
> Chris,
>
> Is the backlog in assessments due to the lack of assessors (another call
> on time and money?) or lack of inclination?
>
> Are there any figures about the participation/pass rates for the old
> Bronze Award? The fact that the IA assessment was actually carried out
> on the course meant everyone actually did the assessment, and usually
> passed (but that is a topic for another thread). The delayed assessments
> tend to mean that people don't get round to them.
>
> However, I do fully agree with your comments about the financial burden
> that the UKCC scheme has brought in - I looked into the cost of
> "harmonising" my Bronze Award with the new level 3 award and was
> somewhat suprised to see that it would cost more than the origional
> award course did, for half of the time.
>

At yesterday's ARA Council meeting, how many representatives spoke up on
this subject?

How many representatives present were actually elected, as opposed to
being the choice of the Division's officers?

How many Divisional officers are elected?

How many members of the ARA Executive are elected?

Representative democracy? A rubber stamp, more likely.

Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

Christopher Anton · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 190

"Martin Gill" wrote in message $N53.2341@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>>
> Chris,
>
> Is the backlog in assessments due to the lack of assessors (another call
> on time and money?) or lack of inclination?
>

Probably both, but in the Thames case I believe that the lack of assessors
isn't helping. Of course you need deep pockets (or a region willing to pay,
or a grant) + plus the available spare time which is probably the rate
determining step if you're going to become an assessor anyway. Imagine the
scenario - one of the AK crews (as an example) asks someone in the club who
help them with a bit of coaching but he replies oops sorry no coan't do this
weekend beacuase I've got to drive to Oxford to assess so-and-so, and can't
do next weekend cos I'm going to Reading, I might fit you in in two months
time.

Sport England seem to have this fantasy where every sport from football to
tiddlywinks is going to have a band of professional coaches who's sole
raison d'etre is to go round tutoring and assessing and earning their money
that way rather than building bridges, or policing, or teaching or pharmacy
or the myriad other jobs nearly all of us do.

Christopher Anton · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 190

"Carl Douglas" wrote in message $8lp$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...

>>
>
> At yesterday's ARA Council meeting, how many representatives spoke up on
> this subject?

several more than me

>
> How many representatives present were actually elected, as opposed to
> being the choice of the Division's officers?

couldn't say, but you can only hold an election if sufficient candidates -
there were more contested Div Rep elections this time round that I could
remember. In my own personal case I wasn't approached by anyone, I
volunteered whn our previous Div Rep had to stand down

>
> How many Divisional officers are elected?

see above - although only regions have officers rather than divisions
>
> How many members of the ARA Executive are elected?

nearly all of them, indirectly though

>
> Representative democracy? A rubber stamp, more likely.

Well it's not like the House of Commons but then the entire rowing
membership voting for the Chairman of the Competition (for example) would be
a bit of a nonsense as most would not know any of the candidates. The
democratic structures are there and I'd like to see them used more.

Stephen and Jane · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 23

Christopher Anton wrote:
>
>>
>> Representative democracy? A rubber stamp, more likely.
>
> Well it's not like the House of Commons but then the entire rowing
> membership voting for the Chairman of the Competition (for example)
> would be a bit of a nonsense as most would not know any of the
> candidates. The democratic structures are there and I'd like to see
> them used more.

It wouldn't be a bit of nonsense at all - it would be a way of allowing a
breath of fresh air enter the sealed chambers of the Executive - and the
rowing public sure as hell needs that!

It is not a democracy if those in power decide that the electorate can't
vote because they wouldn't know the candidate (or for any other fatuous
reason). It is more of a mutual admiration, mutual grooming, mutually
perpetuating society - impenetrable and guaranteed to maintain the status
quo.

All fee paying members should be able to vote on all national appointments.
Surely, it is up to candidates to make themselves known!

Jane and Stephen

Richard Packer · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 61

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:31:43 GMT, "Christopher Anton"
wrote:

>Well it's not like the House of Commons but then the entire rowing
>membership voting for the Chairman of the Competition (for example) would be
>a bit of a nonsense as most would not know any of the candidates. The
>democratic structures are there and I'd like to see them used more.

I don't know any of the candidates on the ballot paper at any local or
general election, and only rarely know those who stand for election to
any of the professional bodies of which I am a member (IET and IEEE),
but I do try and find out what they stand for.

The rowing community is quite small and unless you're very new to the
sport, the odds are most members *do* know a good number of the real
movers and shakers, so how about having an open election for some of
these key Council posts? If those currently in power are confident
that they represent the membership, they have nothing to fear. Or
would they, like our current PM, decline the opportunity of an
election on the grounds that they would win it? Wink

Christopher Anton · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 190

"Stephen and Jane" wrote in message @mid.individual.net...
> Christopher Anton wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Representative democracy? A rubber stamp, more likely.
>>
>> Well it's not like the House of Commons but then the entire rowing
>> membership voting for the Chairman of the Competition (for example)
>> would be a bit of a nonsense as most would not know any of the
>> candidates. The democratic structures are there and I'd like to see
>> them used more.
>
> It wouldn't be a bit of nonsense at all - it would be a way of allowing a
> breath of fresh air enter the sealed chambers of the Executive - and the
> rowing public sure as hell needs that!
>
> It is not a democracy if those in power decide that the electorate can't
> vote because they wouldn't know the candidate (or for any other fatuous
> reason). It is more of a mutual admiration, mutual grooming, mutually
> perpetuating society - impenetrable and guaranteed to maintain the status
> quo.
>
> All fee paying members should be able to vote on all national
> appointments. Surely, it is up to candidates to make themselves known!
>
Well yes it could be done, but would not be cheap and would probably need to
involve something like the Electoral Reform Society. Indirect democracy is
not fundamentally flawed in itself and several hundred million Americans
will participate in it this November. The real problem is I think the
balance is wrong where there are 25 representatives elected by the divisions
(including OU and CU) out of a total of 40 people.

Carl Douglas · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 93

Christopher Anton wrote:
> "Stephen and Jane" wrote in message
> @mid.individual.net...
>
>>Christopher Anton wrote:
>>
>>>>Representative democracy? A rubber stamp, more likely.
>>>
>>>Well it's not like the House of Commons but then the entire rowing
>>>membership voting for the Chairman of the Competition (for example)
>>>would be a bit of a nonsense as most would not know any of the
>>>candidates. The democratic structures are there and I'd like to see
>>>them used more.
>>
>>It wouldn't be a bit of nonsense at all - it would be a way of allowing a
>>breath of fresh air enter the sealed chambers of the Executive - and the
>>rowing public sure as hell needs that!
>>
>>It is not a democracy if those in power decide that the electorate can't
>>vote because they wouldn't know the candidate (or for any other fatuous
>>reason). It is more of a mutual admiration, mutual grooming, mutually
>>perpetuating society - impenetrable and guaranteed to maintain the status
>>quo.
>>
>>All fee paying members should be able to vote on all national
>>appointments. Surely, it is up to candidates to make themselves known!
>>
>
> Well yes it could be done, but would not be cheap and would probably need to
> involve something like the Electoral Reform Society. Indirect democracy is
> not fundamentally flawed in itself and several hundred million Americans
> will participate in it this November. The real problem is I think the
> balance is wrong where there are 25 representatives elected by the divisions
> (including OU and CU) out of a total of 40 people.
>
>

Christopher - you are one of the good guys in this. You take the
trouble to keep people informed, you express your concerns here, & in
all of this you do a grand job. So I hate to find myself appearing to
attack what you have said and ask that you do not take it personally.

Lets go back to one of my original questions:
AIUI, & I may of course be numerically inaccurate, only 1 member of the
present Executive can claim to have been elected. The rest have
co-opted each other, or remain there because they have remained there
since the year dot - a version of the principle of divine right.

Now for the costs of election, since others have already demolished the
argument against holding proper elections:
Don't we have something called the Internet? I can see no significant
cost implications in having free and open elections to Council.
Candidates prospectuses & election addresses would be published on the
ARA website, region by region. Every ARA member now has a known ID, so
a very simple system of secure on-line voting might be instituted -
spoofing reduced by intention to have voted re-checked by means of
acknowledgement emails, & maybe a daily updated list of which ID's have
voted to allow a further self-policing means of limiting fraud ("My ID's
up there but I haven't voted!"). And those preferring the vote by post
could still do so.

I am sure there are those reading this thread with all the skills, & the
good-will, to set up some such voting system for the ARA?

That sort of process would give a private ballot, without voters
worrying about folk exerting peer pressure or looking over their
shoulders. That's the only way to get active voter participation & a
better understanding by rank & file of how their sport is run & by whom.
And it might help to prevent the "buggins' turn" system which results
in Council members being beholden to, & under pressure to conform from,
more senior colleagues.

I've watched with growing alarm the indifference & deliberate ignorance
of Council towards issues both large & small - the sense that, now they
are on Council, members think they must support the status quo & not
embarass the Exec. This lack of collective will to undertake the
necessary research to get to grips with issues of concern, to question,
& if need be to challenge, renders Council as useful to the sport as a
wet blanket. Which is how members of Exec get away with deliberate
misinformation & barefaced lies, even when addressing Coroners & Ministers.

We saw this toothless approach - where no one dared voice their shared
concerns for fear of standing out in a crowd - when just one member had
the guts to stand up in Council, detail the manifold abuses of certain
members of the Executive & call for the Deputy Chairman's resignation.
Some tut-tuts from the dinosaurs who'd had kept themselves deliberately
under-informed. Otherwise, nary a peep. But afterwards that member was
congratulated for having spoken up by those who'd dared not speak in
support of what they knew was right.

Those who did not speak then, when they knew they should since a lone
voice always needs support in such an oppressive atmosphere, will
similarly not speak again when they should. And the more serious the
issue, the more unlikely they are to speak out. They're all too much in
awe of the precious coterie which runs the show.

Heaven knows what it costs, in facility hire & travelling expenses, to
hold these Council meetings, but I think ARA members & the grass roots
of the sport in the UK get a lousy deal from this merest pretence at
representative democracy by the largely unelected.

Today there is concern about the inanity of the new coaching award
schemes. You have expressed it here most eloquently, Christopher. Yet
we all know, don't we, that it will roll on inexorably, because hardly
anyone wants to be like that little kid who dared to say "Look, the
Emperor's got no clothes!".

Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

coach · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 23

The perceived need for a Level 1 and Level 2, Dry Instructors coaching
award has little to do with rowing as most of us know it. It is born
out of the explosion in the "leisure industry and over priced gym
clubs. The ARA has, probably for political power reasons, some how set
itself up as the controlling body for the use of rowing machines.

This is not the only area where the ARA appears to be casting its net.
From the articles that have featured in Regatta Magazine, Gig Rowing,
Board Paddling and Surf Racing are now attracting attention from No 6
Lower Mall.

I am more and more convinced that UK sport want to professionalize all
coaching in the UK and in order to achieve this they have come up with
a coach education and qualification system that discriminates against
volunteers. I have heard an argument, which I disagree with, that
says that the reason why the UK relies heavily on overseas coaches at
elite level is that there is no recognised pathway to becoming a
professional coach in the UK. The argument goes on to say that unless
more clubs are forced to pay coaches, they will continue to lean on
the volunteers thus denying opportunities, at the bottom of the
ladder, for budding professionals.

In structuring the new coaching awards, UKCC have assumed that it is
necessary to have a qualification system that can be recognised by an
employer at the health club or a local authority. They have totally
ignored the realities of our sport which are that it highly unlikely
that Rowing will ever attract the sort of money to be seen in sports
like football. Over 99 1/2 % of rowers in the UK will never represent
their country or row in the Boat Race, the only events to be shown on
television. For the most part, the sport is populated by athletes who
combine rowing with a career off the river,

I understand that the competition review has identified that the
majority of rowers in this country are below S2 level. There are few
events above this level and those that do run are often non-qualifying
due the lack of numbers entering. I would suggest that one of the
reasons for this is that, to be truly competitive at S1 and open level
now requires a level of commitment and resources that few athletes and
clubs are able to give. If the highest realistic ambition of your club
or crew is to win at your local regatta, is employing a professional
coach going to come higher up the priority list on your finances than
buying a second hand boat or installing new showers? I guess that,
unless sport in general and, in our case rowing, becomes a fully state
funded, we will need to continue to rely on our volunteer coaches.

So long as we need to rely on attracting volunteers, we need a coach
education system that reflects their needs. There appears to be a
Level 1 qualification for the ergo but still nothing at this level on
the water.

coach · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 23

On 10 Feb, 16:33, "Christopher Anton"
wrote:
> "Martin Gill" wrote in message
>
> $N53.2341@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>
>
>
> > Chris,
>
> > Is the backlog in assessments due to the lack of assessors (another call
> > on time and money?) or lack of inclination?
>
> Probably both, but in the Thames case I believe that the lack of assessors
> isn't helping. Of course you need deep pockets (or a region willing to pay,
> or a grant) + plus the available spare time which is probably the rate
> determining step if you're going to become an assessor anyway. Imagine the
> scenario - one of the AK crews (as an example) asks someone in the club who
> help them with a bit of coaching but he replies oops sorry no coan't do this
> weekend beacuase I've got to drive to Oxford to assess so-and-so, and can't
> do next weekend cos I'm going to Reading, I might fit you in in two months
> time.
>
> Sport England seem to have this fantasy where every sport from football to
> tiddlywinks is going to have a band of professional coaches who's sole
> raison d'etre is to go round tutoring and assessing and earning their money
> that way rather than building bridges, or policing, or teaching or pharmacy
> or the myriad other jobs nearly all of us do.

There is a distinct possibility that some of the candidates within the
Thames Region could find themselves as having been deemed to have
failed the course due their not having been assessed within the two
years. If they can prove that this was due to the unavailability of an
assessor, at a time that is convenient to their crew, would they have
a case to press for a refund of the fees for the course on the basis
that the organisers did not provide a product fit for purpose.

If there are any lawyers out there, your comments would be welcome.

David McC · Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 11

On 11 Feb, 12:55, coach wrote:
>
> There is a distinct possibility that some of the candidates within the
> Thames Region could find themselves as having been deemed to have
> failed the course due their not having been assessed within the two
> years. If they can prove that this was due to the unavailability of an
> assessor, at a time that is convenient to their crew, would they have
> a case to press for a refund of the fees for the course on the basis
> that the organisers did not provide a product fit for purpose.
>
> If there are any lawyers out there, your comments would be welcome.- Hide quoted text -
>

Not fit for purpose applies to the quality of the content i.e. if you
learn the contents of the course will you be able to do what they said
the intent of the course is?

Not having assessors is more "Non-performance". Certainly refund of
the fees and a case for damages for costs incurred.

Taniwha

(Not a lawyer)

carolinetu · Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 33

On Feb 11, 1:58 am, David McC wrote:
> On 11 Feb, 12:55, coach wrote:
>
>
>
> > There is a distinct possibility that some of the candidates within the
> > Thames Region could find themselves as having been deemed to have
> > failed the course due their not having been assessed within the two
> > years. If they can prove that this was due to the unavailability of an
> > assessor, at a time that is convenient to their crew, would they have
> > a case to press for a refund of the fees for the course on the basis
> > that the organisers did not provide a product fit for purpose.
>
> > If there are any lawyers out there, your comments would be welcome.- Hide quoted text -
>
> Not fit for purpose applies to the quality of the content i.e. if you
> learn the contents of the course will you be able to do what they said
> the intent of the course is?
>
> Not having assessors is more "Non-performance". Certainly refund of
> the fees and a case for damages for costs incurred.
>
> Taniwha
>
> (Not a lawyer)

There are several people in my club who have taken the course but not
yet done the assessment. I keep reminding them, but they keep coming
up with excuses - they "haven't had time", are "waiting until after
the exams" etc. And these are people who coach every week, so it's
just a matter of writing up what they do anyway for six sessions and
then getting me or another assessor (my chum Ken from just down the
water) to observe them.

So a large part of the problem is psychological - somehow it's more
daunting to complete the paperwork and arrange an assesssment than to
do it as part of the course, as was the case with the IA. I
sympathise, having done the Silver course but not completed the
assessment!

Another problem from the assessor's viewpoint is that the test is
normally done at the candidate's club. This limits the number of
candidates who can be assessed in one day - and the assessment takes
about 2 hours compared with 45 minutes for the Instructors Award.
Some of the clubs I have assessed at have been an hour's drive away -
so that's 4 hours of my time to assess one candidate (since there is
rarely more than one at a time).

The Thames Regional Rowing Council are arranging some assessment days
at Dorney Lake in March/April to try to clear some of the backlog.
We will have several assessors each testing 3 candidates per day. I
am quite happy to do some more at Weybridge if people want to come
there (we were down to yellow boards at the weekend and hoping
conditions will continue to improve).

On the plus side, candidates have said that they feel much more
confident about doing real coaching than was the case on the old IA
where basically they just learned how to get people in and out of
boats. That's what we should have a Level 1 course for.

I am also a tutor for the Dry Instructor's award - but have only ever
tutored on one course. As far as I can see, there is no demand
whatsoever for Level 1, let alone Level 2.

Caroline

Liz · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

On 10 Feb, 23:05, Carl Douglas wrote:
> Christopher Anton wrote:
> > "Stephen and Jane" wrote in message
> >@mid.individual.net...
>
> >>Christopher Anton wrote:
>
> >>>>Representative democracy? A rubber stamp, more likely.
>
> >>>Well it's not like the House of Commons but then the entire rowing
> >>>membership voting for the Chairman of the Competition (for example)
> >>>would be a bit of a nonsense as most would not know any of the
> >>>candidates. The democratic structures are there and I'd like to see
> >>>them used more.
>
> >>It wouldn't be a bit of nonsense at all - it would be a way of allowing a
> >>breath of fresh air enter the sealed chambers of the Executive - and the
> >>rowing public sure as hell needs that!
>
> >>It is not a democracy if those in power decide that the electorate can't
> >>vote because they wouldn't know the candidate (or for any other fatuous
> >>reason). It is more of a mutual admiration, mutual grooming, mutually
> >>perpetuating society - impenetrable and guaranteed to maintain the status
> >>quo.
>
> >>All fee paying members should be able to vote on all national
> >>appointments. Surely, it is up to candidates to make themselves known!
>
> > Well yes it could be done, but would not be cheap and would probably need to
> > involve something like the Electoral Reform Society. Indirect democracy is
> > not fundamentally flawed in itself and several hundred million Americans
> > will participate in it this November. The real problem is I think the
> > balance is wrong where there are 25 representatives elected by the divisions
> > (including OU and CU) out of a total of 40 people.
>
> Christopher - you are one of the good guys in this. You take the
> trouble to keep people informed, you express your concerns here, & in
> all of this you do a grand job. So I hate to find myself appearing to
> attack what you have said and ask that you do not take it personally.
>
> Lets go back to one of my original questions:
> AIUI, & I may of course be numerically inaccurate, only 1 member of the
> present Executive can claim to have been elected. The rest have
> co-opted each other, or remain there because they have remained there
> since the year dot - a version of the principle of divine right.
>
> Now for the costs of election, since others have already demolished the
> argument against holding proper elections:
> Don't we have something called the Internet? I can see no significant
> cost implications in having free and open elections to Council.
> Candidates prospectuses & election addresses would be published on the
> ARA website, region by region. Every ARA member now has a known ID, so
> a very simple system of secure on-line voting might be instituted -
> spoofing reduced by intention to have voted re-checked by means of
> acknowledgement emails, & maybe a daily updated list of which ID's have
> voted to allow a further self-policing means of limiting fraud ("My ID's
> up there but I haven't voted!"). And those preferring the vote by post
> could still do so.
>
> I am sure there are those reading this thread with all the skills, & the
> good-will, to set up some such voting system for the ARA?
>
> That sort of process would give a private ballot, without voters
> worrying about folk exerting peer pressure or looking over their
> shoulders. That's the only way to get active voter participation & a
> better understanding by rank & file of how their sport is run & by whom.
> And it might help to prevent the "buggins' turn" system which results
> in Council members being beholden to, & under pressure to conform from,
> more senior colleagues.
>

>
> - Show quoted text -

You've all overlooked the fact that in the ARA Constitution, its the
clubs that are members and not individuals.
IFRC Div Rep elections (if there is more than one candidate) rely on
club votes (not sure about events) and clubs have a number of votes
dependent upon their registered membership numbers

Carl Douglas · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 93

Liz wrote:
> On 10 Feb, 23:05, Carl Douglas wrote:
>
>>Christopher Anton wrote:
>>
>>>"Stephen and Jane" wrote in message
>>>@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>>>Christopher Anton wrote:
>>
>>>>>>Representative democracy? A rubber stamp, more likely.
>>
>>>>>Well it's not like the House of Commons but then the entire rowing
>>>>>membership voting for the Chairman of the Competition (for example)
>>>>>would be a bit of a nonsense as most would not know any of the
>>>>>candidates. The democratic structures are there and I'd like to see
>>>>>them used more.
>>
>>>>It wouldn't be a bit of nonsense at all - it would be a way of allowing a
>>>>breath of fresh air enter the sealed chambers of the Executive - and the
>>>>rowing public sure as hell needs that!
>>
>>>>It is not a democracy if those in power decide that the electorate can't
>>>>vote because they wouldn't know the candidate (or for any other fatuous
>>>>reason). It is more of a mutual admiration, mutual grooming, mutually
>>>>perpetuating society - impenetrable and guaranteed to maintain the status
>>>>quo.
>>
>>>>All fee paying members should be able to vote on all national
>>>>appointments. Surely, it is up to candidates to make themselves known!
>>
>>>Well yes it could be done, but would not be cheap and would probably need to
>>>involve something like the Electoral Reform Society. Indirect democracy is
>>>not fundamentally flawed in itself and several hundred million Americans
>>>will participate in it this November. The real problem is I think the
>>>balance is wrong where there are 25 representatives elected by the divisions
>>>(including OU and CU) out of a total of 40 people.
>>
>>Christopher - you are one of the good guys in this. You take the
>>trouble to keep people informed, you express your concerns here, & in
>>all of this you do a grand job. So I hate to find myself appearing to
>>attack what you have said and ask that you do not take it personally.
>>
>>Lets go back to one of my original questions:
>>AIUI, & I may of course be numerically inaccurate, only 1 member of the
>>present Executive can claim to have been elected. The rest have
>>co-opted each other, or remain there because they have remained there
>>since the year dot - a version of the principle of divine right.
>>
>>Now for the costs of election, since others have already demolished the
>>argument against holding proper elections:
>>Don't we have something called the Internet? I can see no significant
>>cost implications in having free and open elections to Council.
>>Candidates prospectuses & election addresses would be published on the
>>ARA website, region by region. Every ARA member now has a known ID, so
>>a very simple system of secure on-line voting might be instituted -
>>spoofing reduced by intention to have voted re-checked by means of
>>acknowledgement emails, & maybe a daily updated list of which ID's have
>>voted to allow a further self-policing means of limiting fraud ("My ID's
>>up there but I haven't voted!"). And those preferring the vote by post
>>could still do so.
>>
>>I am sure there are those reading this thread with all the skills, & the
>>good-will, to set up some such voting system for the ARA?
>>
>>That sort of process would give a private ballot, without voters
>>worrying about folk exerting peer pressure or looking over their
>>shoulders. That's the only way to get active voter participation & a
>>better understanding by rank & file of how their sport is run & by whom.
>> And it might help to prevent the "buggins' turn" system which results
>>in Council members being beholden to, & under pressure to conform from,
>>more senior colleagues.
>>
>
>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
> You've all overlooked the fact that in the ARA Constitution, its the
> clubs that are members and not individuals.
> IFRC Div Rep elections (if there is more than one candidate) rely on
> club votes (not sure about events) and clubs have a number of votes
> dependent upon their registered membership numbers
>

According to the ARA website:
http://www.ara-rowing.org/render.aspx?siteID=1&navIDs=1,40
individuals are members. No ifs or buts.

The ARA, quite recently, masqueraded in public as being "of the members,
run by the members, for the members". That immediately begs the
question of what is meant, at any given time in any given place, by the
term "member", doesn't it? Apparently, "member" can mean whatever the
Exec wants it to mean - a truly Lewis Carrolian concept. Note too the
great majority of clubs have no machinery for polling their own members
(i.e. subs-paying guys & gals) prior to their club votes being cast (or
not) on the appointment of representatives to Council.

So while much ARA income is taken directly & indirectly from the rank &
file membership, & much of the rest comes as government funding (which,
of course, also comes from Joe Public which comprises a smattering of
rowers), those whom it unambiguously calls "members" have in reality not
the slightest say in how it conducts itself.

Thus we have the patronising & corrupting situation of taxation without
representation. On which subject see, e.g.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_taxation_without_representation

Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

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