Dinghy sailing in bigger winds

Stephen Page · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

Hey chaps/chapesses

My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.

So far I have (a) rake the mast back (b) de-power the sails with
cunningham/outhaul/kicker (c) sit further back on a run, lifting the
bow.

So what am I missing? I seem to think that pointing up or bearing
away when a gust comes has a bearing on this. I also seem to think
there are better techniques of easing the sails than just letting go.

What else can we do?

Is there a good book to read that will guide us through? Is there a
training video we can watch?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can give us.

Stephen Page

Archived from group: rec>boats>racing

Martin.Schoon · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

Stephen Page writes:

> Hey chaps/chapesses
>
> My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
> badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
> them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.
>
> So far I have (a) rake the mast back (b) de-power the sails with
> cunningham/outhaul/kicker (c) sit further back on a run, lifting the
> bow.
>
> So what am I missing? I seem to think that pointing up or bearing
> away when a gust comes has a bearing on this. I also seem to think
> there are better techniques of easing the sails than just letting go.
>
> What else can we do?
>
> Is there a good book to read that will guide us through? Is there a
> training video we can watch?
>
> Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can give us.
>
> Stephen Page
>

Frank Bethwaithe's 10+ years old book High Performance Sailing
is full of tuning and handling tips in various wind and wave
conditions.

--
Martin Schöön

"Problems worthy of attack
prove their worth by hitting back"
Piet Hein

toad · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 103

On 28 Sep, 07:03, Stephen Page wrote:
> Hey chaps/chapesses
>
> My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
> badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
> them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.
>
> So far I have (a) rake the mast back

I'm not sure raking the mast back will help much. Surely that just
helps you point better/gives you more weather helm? I could be wrong.

> (b) de-power the sails with
> cunningham/outhaul/kicker

Yup. Cunningham and outhaul bar tight. Kicker slackened to let the top
of the sail twist to spill wind.

> (c) sit further back on a run, lifting the
> bow.

Yup, near the front up wind near the back downwind.

> So what am I missing?

Nothing. I think they've just got to go out and do more and more of
it. No substitue for practice. I'm assuing they both have wetsuits so
they're comfortable and warm when they bin it?

> I seem to think that pointing up or bearing
> away when a gust comes has a bearing on this.

Yup. Either, point the power away or ease off and bear away for speed.

> I also seem to think
> there are better techniques of easing the sails than just letting go.

Dunno, dumping a bit of main is a pretty effective way to de-power. Of
course you don't need to totally let go, just let out a handfull. (IME
in a two man dinghies it's best if the crew dumps the jib first.)

> What else can we do?

I think you've got it sussed. Tune the boat appropriately, let them
spend time on the water to work it out for themselves as they surely
will.

IME being light is no handicap at all in the heavy stuff. I used to
campaign a fireball and we were bang on the right weight for it. We
thought this would be a massive advantage over the light crews in big
winds but it it wasn't at all. The light crews just lifted up onto the
plane earlier and the power was converted into forward motion. Had the
same the first season I sail my laser as a young lad. I weighed 3/4 of
bugger all and was unbeatable in light winds. I think everyone
(including me) assumed I wouldn't be competative in heavy winds. Sure
enough on the windy days I'd come off the windward mark, pop onto the
plane and disappear into the distance.

Is it worth them going out on a day when they're not racing make no
effort at all to go up wind or dead down wind? Just beam reach up and
down all afternoon like a windsurfer a) having a great time and b)
getting totally comfortable with the conditions?

One other thing. I recal me brother and I sailing a Mirror Dinghy one
season as nippers. On windy days Pa Toad (not a sailor) always
recommended not using the kite so we didn't. Then one day it struck us
that dead down wind it might actually make things more stable, not
less - and it did. Might be worth considering.

Duncan Heenan · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 83

"Stephen Page" wrote in message @y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> Hey chaps/chapesses
>
> My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
> badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
> them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.
>
> So far I have (a) rake the mast back (b) de-power the sails with
> cunningham/outhaul/kicker (c) sit further back on a run, lifting the
> bow.
>
> So what am I missing? I seem to think that pointing up or bearing
> away when a gust comes has a bearing on this. I also seem to think
> there are better techniques of easing the sails than just letting go.
>
> What else can we do?
>
> Is there a good book to read that will guide us through? Is there a
> training video we can watch?
>
> Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can give us.
>
> Stephen Page

Has the main sail got reefing points in? If so reef.
If not talk to a sail maker and consider getting a reef put in. Not
expensive and very helpful in big wind.
Also contact http://www.cadetclass.org.uk/gettingstarted.htm for an
experienced and expert community who might be able to help.

Alastair · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 10

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:03:32 -0700, Stephen Page
wrote:

>Hey chaps/chapesses
>
>My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
>badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
>them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.
>
>So far I have (a) rake the mast back (b) de-power the sails with
>cunningham/outhaul/kicker (c) sit further back on a run, lifting the
>bow.
>
>So what am I missing? I seem to think that pointing up or bearing
>away when a gust comes has a bearing on this. I also seem to think
>there are better techniques of easing the sails than just letting go.
>
>What else can we do?
>
>Is there a good book to read that will guide us through? Is there a
>training video we can watch?
>
>Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can give us.
>
>Stephen Page
>

Speaking from ignorance here but, when the wind pipes up, isn't
putting in a reef the seamanlike thing to do?
--
Alastair

Pete · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 29

Alastair wrote:

>
> Speaking from ignorance here but,

'fraid so Smile

when the wind pipes up, isn't
> putting in a reef the seamanlike thing to do?
> --
> Alastair

Pete · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 29

Alastair wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:03:32 -0700, Stephen Page
> wrote:
>
>
>>Hey chaps/chapesses
>>
>>My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
>>badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
>>them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.

Absolutely - about 90% technique I'd say.

toad · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 103

Someone wrote:

> when the wind pipes up, isn't putting in a reef the seamanlike thing to do?

In a dinghy you've got so much rig control you simply simply don't
need to reduce sail area to de-power. Also in a non-displacement boat
all that excess power can be efficiently turned from 'pushing you
over' energy into more and more forward speed.

Pete · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 29

Stephen Page wrote:

>
> Is there a good book to read that will guide us through? Is there a
> training video we can watch?

An absolutely wonderful book (paricularly relevant to sailors at the
stage that your kids are)is "Start to win" by Eric Twiname. Its now well
out of print, but I daresay that a copy can be found via the web. Don't
get confused by "start, race and win" by the same author which is NOT
what you want.

toad · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 103

On 28 Sep, 11:09, Pete wrote:

> dreaded deathroll

I was south of Arran sailing dead downwind with windsurfing mate. We
didn't have the kite up and started to rock a bit.

"In dinghies we used to call death rolling." I said.
"Oh, why's that?" he asked.
"Because you might lose control and fall in." I replied.
"Is that a bad thing?" He enquired.
"Errr, now I come to think of it no, it isn't." was all I could say
to that.

After that exchange I've been sparing with that ludicrously over-
dramatic term.

> If the top of the sail is blown forward of the
> mast, then this creates a lateral force at the top of the mast, thus
> roling the boat. You need to ensure that this doesn't happen by applying
> enough kicker to limit the twist in the gusts.

Cheers, I regretted not pointing that out in my OP. Dead down wind in
a real blow plenty of kicker and maybe even oversheet the main. Best
of all get the kite up. I swear the Enterbox wouldn't have had the
reputation it had if it had been blessed with a kite.

AeRobert · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

Stephen Page wrote:
> Hey chaps/chapesses
>
> My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
> badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
> them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.
>
> So far I have (a) rake the mast back (b) de-power the sails with
> cunningham/outhaul/kicker (c) sit further back on a run, lifting the
> bow.
>
> So what am I missing? I seem to think that pointing up or bearing
> away when a gust comes has a bearing on this. I also seem to think
> there are better techniques of easing the sails than just letting go.
>
> What else can we do?
>
> Is there a good book to read that will guide us through? Is there a
> training video we can watch?
>
> Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can give us.
>
> Stephen Page
>

There must be a good tuning guide for Cadets - perhaps in the
Class Association Magazine
They are not very complex boats, usually the mast is
pretty stiff, so the kicker doesn't have a huge flattening
effect on the sail - it would be good to have some flat
sails for obviously windy days.

In strong wind you need to sail the boat FLAT, the helm will
know when it's flat because the weather helm on the rudder
really drops off - there'll still be some pull, but the tiller
should be centred. Adjust the toe straps so that you can really
get your weight out - it's hard on the legs but after a few weeks
they will be able to do more sit ups than their non sailing
classmates.
On the beat the helm squeezes the crew against the shroud to keep
the bow down - the flat front should be just clear of the water.
If there is big chop then ease back down the boat a little to
reduce the impacts.

Off the wind the Cadet is great at planing, throwing spray cleanly
sideways, but it must be FLAT.

On the runs and broad reaches, don't hold back on the kite - it's
little more than a handkerchief but it noticeably adds pull, and a
windy 3-sail reach in a Cadet - fab.

Robert
(70s Cadet Sailor)

Walt · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 19

toad wrote:
> On 28 Sep, 07:03, Stephen Page wrote:
>>
>> My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
>> badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
>> them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.
>>
>> So far I have (a) rake the mast back
>
> I'm not sure raking the mast back will help much. Surely that just
> helps you point better/gives you more weather helm? I could be wrong.

Depends on the boat. Raking the mast aft means that when you apply
kicker (vang) the mast bends thereby flattening the mainsail. It's a
common way to depower a dinghy. Of course, it only works if the mast is
capable of bending.

>
>> (b) de-power the sails with
>> cunningham/outhaul/kicker
>
> Yup. Cunningham and outhaul bar tight. Kicker slackened to let the top
> of the sail twist to spill wind.
>
>> (c) sit further back on a run, lifting the
>> bow.
>
> Yup, near the front up wind near the back downwind.
>
>> So what am I missing?
>
> Nothing. I think they've just got to go out and do more and more of
> it. No substitue for practice. I'm assuing they both have wetsuits so
> they're comfortable and warm when they bin it?
>
>> I seem to think that pointing up or bearing
>> away when a gust comes has a bearing on this.
>
> Yup. Either, point the power away or ease off and bear away for speed.
>
>> I also seem to think
>> there are better techniques of easing the sails than just letting go.
>
> Dunno, dumping a bit of main is a pretty effective way to de-power. Of
> course you don't need to totally let go, just let out a handfull. (IME
> in a two man dinghies it's best if the crew dumps the jib first.)
>
>> What else can we do?
>
> I think you've got it sussed. Tune the boat appropriately, let them
> spend time on the water to work it out for themselves as they surely
> will.
>
> IME being light is no handicap at all in the heavy stuff. I used to
> campaign a fireball and we were bang on the right weight for it. We
> thought this would be a massive advantage over the light crews in big
> winds but it it wasn't at all. The light crews just lifted up onto the
> plane earlier and the power was converted into forward motion. Had the
> same the first season I sail my laser as a young lad. I weighed 3/4 of
> bugger all and was unbeatable in light winds. I think everyone
> (including me) assumed I wouldn't be competative in heavy winds. Sure
> enough on the windy days I'd come off the windward mark, pop onto the
> plane and disappear into the distance.
>
> Is it worth them going out on a day when they're not racing make no
> effort at all to go up wind or dead down wind? Just beam reach up and
> down all afternoon like a windsurfer a) having a great time and b)
> getting totally comfortable with the conditions?
>
> One other thing. I recal me brother and I sailing a Mirror Dinghy one
> season as nippers. On windy days Pa Toad (not a sailor) always
> recommended not using the kite so we didn't. Then one day it struck us
> that dead down wind it might actually make things more stable, not
> less - and it did. Might be worth considering.
>

Rob Cullen · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

Feed them

--
Protected by www.Spamjab.com {1ClyzYGhYG9yw5arEQ}
"Stephen Page" wrote in message @y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> Hey chaps/chapesses
>
> My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
> badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
> them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.
>
> So far I have (a) rake the mast back (b) de-power the sails with
> cunningham/outhaul/kicker (c) sit further back on a run, lifting the
> bow.
>
> So what am I missing? I seem to think that pointing up or bearing
> away when a gust comes has a bearing on this. I also seem to think
> there are better techniques of easing the sails than just letting go.
>
> What else can we do?
>
> Is there a good book to read that will guide us through? Is there a
> training video we can watch?
>
> Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can give us.
>
> Stephen Page
>

Alastair · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 10

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:33:19 +0100, "Duncan Heenan"
wrote:

>
>"Stephen Page" wrote in message
>@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
>> Hey chaps/chapesses
>>
>> My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
>> badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
>> them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.
>>
>> So far I have (a) rake the mast back (b) de-power the sails with
>> cunningham/outhaul/kicker (c) sit further back on a run, lifting the
>> bow.
>>
>> So what am I missing? I seem to think that pointing up or bearing
>> away when a gust comes has a bearing on this. I also seem to think
>> there are better techniques of easing the sails than just letting go.
>>
>> What else can we do?
>>
>> Is there a good book to read that will guide us through? Is there a
>> training video we can watch?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can give us.
>>
>> Stephen Page
>
>Has the main sail got reefing points in? If so reef.
>If not talk to a sail maker and consider getting a reef put in. Not
>expensive and very helpful in big wind.

Ah, good. I'm glad someone else is as ignorant as me about good
seamanship.

--
Alastair

toad · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 103

On 28 Sep, 20:52, alast...@as4jg.freeuk.com (Alastair) wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:33:19 +0100, "Duncan Heenan"
>
>
>
>
>
> wrote:
>
> >"Stephen Page" wrote in message
> >@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> >> Hey chaps/chapesses
>
> >> My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
> >> badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
> >> them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.
>
> >> So far I have (a) rake the mast back (b) de-power the sails with
> >> cunningham/outhaul/kicker (c) sit further back on a run, lifting the
> >> bow.
>
> >> So what am I missing? I seem to think that pointing up or bearing
> >> away when a gust comes has a bearing on this. I also seem to think
> >> there are better techniques of easing the sails than just letting go.
>
> >> What else can we do?
>
> >> Is there a good book to read that will guide us through? Is there a
> >> training video we can watch?
>
> >> Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can give us.
>
> >> Stephen Page
>
> >Has the main sail got reefing points in? If so reef.
> >If not talk to a sail maker and consider getting a reef put in. Not
> >expensive and very helpful in big wind.
>
> Ah, good. I'm glad someone else is as ignorant as me about good
> seamanship.

You do both seem to have forgotten the basics of sail trimming.

Best lifejacket for dinghy sailing? Spent several hours googling. All the way from $229 British automatic inflatables (very cool) and knockoffs (Mustang) to $120 Lotus variants, to $100 Extrasport to Sterns and WestMarine at considerably less. We're doing J-24s, Rhodes 19s, and a 10' dink,

sheltered salt water sailing in LA and Orange My college sailing club wants to practice sailing on our Coronado 15s. We don't have much experience. What are the best sheltered salt-water sailing locations in Los Angeles and Orange counties?

Pacific Singlehanded Sailing Association meeting Monday 14th Reminder to all sailors in Southern California of the PSSA [Pacific Singlehanded Sailing Association] meeting on Monday the 14th at Santa Monica Windjammers Yacht Club, 8 PM. Go to pssala.org for details and directions. All sailors welcome, you don't have

Driving a dinghy through waves Dear chaps and chappesses Showered by the success of your previous advice on the subject of sailing in bigger winds, I wonder if I can now tempt you into your second tour de force. The challenge: To tell my boys the art of driving a dinghy through waves

August 25 - Well, that about winds it up. August 25 - Well, that about winds it up. I'm sitting on the hook (anchored for those not familiar with the term) under Atlantic Highlands, NJ, near the municipal pier, and not far from the Atlantic Highlands Yacht Club. There's a dinghy dock at the muni