"Come on, you can do it!"

agedest · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 1

Something I'm seeing too much of may not be so common where you climb,
but I bet it is if you climb where beginners are taken to learn about
outdoor climbing. I've never been in a climbing gym, where this may
be the norm, and I think it is a natural part of doing climbing for
groups. Whoever is on the rock is being constantly advised and
encouraged.

The people urging them on feel very "good about themselves" for being
so "positive" and supportive. But what about the climber? I think
too often the climbers are being pushed too far beyond their ability
and comfort. That can be dangerous or at least hazardous, and does
not necessarily make for "a good experience" to force them to love
themselves and climbing. It can be more in the direction of
traumatic, being pushed toward too much fear and helplessness. I've
seen especially girls literally begging to be let down, almost in
tears. The more the beginner is pushed, the greater the failure when
they do give up. The more people cheering them on, the more people
the climber fails to please if the top is not achieved.

If someone does something only because it was demanded by others, what
did they do themselves? If they were just scooting a foot or hand
around "No, farther left, up a bit, keep going--there, that's it."
what did they learn about climbing? If it's all about the mob on the
ground or a boyfriend and what they say, what was it for the climber?
Is being the pawn for a group or some guy, what climbing is about? Is
standing on the ground, staring up at someone with serious leg shake,
and shouting with a big grin "Come on! You can do it! Good job!"
what climbing is about?

Not for me, and not for a lot of people we won't see at the rock
again. It is a big part of why the rocks are so crowded and getting
worse.

-

Archived from group: rec>climbing

Paulina · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

agedest wrote:
> The people urging them on feel very "good about themselves" for being
> so "positive" and supportive. But what about the climber?

I have felt this too, just as I've been guilty of excessive
encouragement. Which I usually engage in when specifically "teaching"
beginners to climb on toprope and it's their first time or something.
Rationale: they really don't necessarily know what to do, and when I was
a total beginner I wish people would tell me where to put my feet - it
wasn't intuitive to me.
If I see the struggling though, I usually ask, in between
encouragements: have you had enough? Is it time to come down?

The rock will be there tomorrow, and the day after, anyone can always
come back. I don't like encouraging shouts for myself, though, even when
I'm struggling up something on toprope.

Cheers
Paulina
PS This post hasn't added anything to the discussion, has it? Well, I'm
just happy to be talking to this esteemed forum...

David Kastrup · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 12

Paulina writes:

> agedest wrote:
>> The people urging them on feel very "good about themselves" for being
>> so "positive" and supportive. But what about the climber?
>
>
>
> I have felt this too, just as I've been guilty of excessive
> encouragement. Which I usually engage in when specifically "teaching"
> beginners to climb on toprope and it's their first time or
> something. Rationale: they really don't necessarily know what to do,
> and when I was a total beginner I wish people would tell me where to
> put my feet - it wasn't intuitive to me.
> If I see the struggling though, I usually ask, in between
> encouragements: have you had enough? Is it time to come down?
>
> The rock will be there tomorrow, and the day after, anyone can always
> come back. I don't like encouraging shouts for myself, though, even
> when I'm struggling up something on toprope.

I have at times told a helpful belayer to be quiet since he made it hard
listening to the rock.

--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Paulina · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

David Kastrup wrote:
> Paulina writes:
>> I don't like encouraging shouts for myself, though, even
>> when I'm struggling up something on toprope.
>
> I have at times told a helpful belayer to be quiet since he made it hard
> listening to the rock.
>

That's a good way of putting it.

Cheers
Paulina

Martin Carpenter · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 7

On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:42:21 -0400, Paulina wrote:

> I have felt this too, just as I've been guilty of excessive
> encouragement.

I have noticed that when it gets tough (for them), talkative partners
become quiet, and quiet partners (me) suddenly start babbling (or
whistling). I'm pretty certain that I'm not looking for an in depth
conversation at this point, however.

> If I see the struggling though, I usually ask, in between
> encouragements: have you had enough? Is it time to come down?

I never do this, but maybe it's a good reverse psych play.

When they say "Okay, I'm done here", my usual response is "Sure?". And then
we wait for a bit > Wink

And then maybe they have another go. Or maybe they
don't. And then maybe I let them down. Or maybe I don't > Wink

Martin (boing boing NZ tomorrow boing boing!).

David Kastrup · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 12

Martin Carpenter writes:

> On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:42:21 -0400, Paulina wrote:
>
>> I have felt this too, just as I've been guilty of excessive
>> encouragement.
>
> I have noticed that when it gets tough (for them), talkative partners
> become quiet, and quiet partners (me) suddenly start babbling (or
> whistling). I'm pretty certain that I'm not looking for an in depth
> conversation at this point, however.
>
>
>> If I see the struggling though, I usually ask, in between
>> encouragements: have you had enough? Is it time to come down?
>
> I never do this, but maybe it's a good reverse psych play.
>
> When they say "Okay, I'm done here", my usual response is "Sure?".

Eifel. I am doing Dr. No at the end of the day (not likely somebody
will come after me, everybody's exhausted). Half up, in a recess, I
call down and say "ok, that's it for today". I am not known to be a
quitter. There is no particular reason. Response: "Sure?". I think
again: why should I quit in the middle of it? This is nonsense. Never
did something like that. So I call down "Ok, put me on belay again, I
go on".

4 meters up, a ledge. Eifel is conglomerate, pebbles in sandstone. But
this here is sandstone pure, sort of a whaleback. You just lean on your
arms and use the friction to pull up and roll over. Just when I am
moving my feet up, the whole top layer of the whaleback, maybe a quarter
of an inch, disintegrates into sand and I slide off, unloading a large
sand cloud onto my belayer, grabbing desperately for some hold. One
hand catches onto something flimsy. Not enough grip to get the feet
back to somewhere where they would hold. The rope runs down and round
some semi-pillar. Somewhere there, out of sight to the side, is the
next piece of pro. I struggle for a number of seconds, the remaining
hand slides slowly off. Still enough time to notify the belayer (who
ducked the cloud of compact sand) before I fall. Only minor damage.

This time I take the hint. I bail.

--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Mark Heyman · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 7

"agedest" wrote in message @e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Something I'm seeing too much of may not be so common where you climb,
> but I bet it is if you climb where beginners are taken to learn about
> outdoor climbing. I've never been in a climbing gym, where this may
> be the norm, and I think it is a natural part of doing climbing for
> groups. Whoever is on the rock is being constantly advised and
> encouraged.

OK and good.

> The people urging them on feel very "good about themselves" for being
> so "positive" and supportive. But what about the climber? I think
> too often the climbers are being pushed too far beyond their ability
> and comfort. That can be dangerous or at least hazardous,

Dangerous? Assuming they'r beginner, so not leading I don't see it.

>and does
> not necessarily make for "a good experience" to force them to love
> themselves and climbing. It can be more in the direction of
> traumatic, being pushed toward too much fear and helplessness. I've
> seen especially girls literally begging to be let down, almost in
> tears.

This is different.

The more the beginner is pushed, the greater the failure when
> they do give up. The more people cheering them on, the more people
> the climber fails to please if the top is not achieved.
....
> Not for me, and not for a lot of people we won't see at the rock
> again. It is a big part of why the rocks are so crowded and getting
> worse.

Believe it or not, I see this less than I used to - and I think it is
precisely because climbing has become more mainstream. I see many very
supportive groups at the places I climb whereas I used to see boyfriends
dragging girlfriends along with outcomes as you describe. Those outcomes
still occur I'm sure, but even then, more often the boyfriend girlfriend
pair have friends along and it less likely to get ugly.

Eugene Miya · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 51

In article ,
Paulina wrote:
>just happy to be talking to this esteemed forum...

Esteemed?
A Usenet news group?

--

Paulina · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

Eugene Miya wrote:
> In article ,
> Paulina wrote:
>> just happy to be talking to this esteemed forum...
>
> Esteemed?
> A Usenet news group?
>

It's both polite and useful to respect people you talk to, Eugene. Or,
if this really bothers you so much, think of it as sarcasm.

Cheers
Paulina

Eugene Miya · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 51

In article ,
Paulina wrote:
>>> just happy to be talking to this esteemed forum...

>Eugene Miya wrote:
>> Esteemed?
>> A Usenet news group?
>
>It's both polite and useful to respect people you talk to, Eugene. Or,

Hey, it's the rough and tumble electronic frontier.
It's not a place for false modesty like "IMHO".
Or as a Trek episode once noted:
Zaldans do not like shallow expressions of courtesy.

>if this really bothers you so much, think of it as sarcasm.

Ah, that's the spirit.

--

lekker · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 17

Eugene Miya wrote:
> In article ,
> Paulina wrote:
>>>> just happy to be talking to this esteemed forum...
>
>> Eugene Miya wrote:
>>> Esteemed?
>>> A Usenet news group?
>> It's both polite and useful to respect people you talk to, Eugene. Or,
>
> Hey, it's the rough and tumble electronic frontier.
> It's not a place for false modesty like "IMHO".
> Or as a Trek episode once noted:
> Zaldans do not like shallow expressions of courtesy.
>
>
>> if this really bothers you so much, think of it as sarcasm.
>
> Ah, that's the spirit.
>

I heard once that a belayer should praise the leader to a point just
short of sarcasm. Some climbers can encourage with obvious sincerity and
I've found that helpful. Russ Erickson was a master at it.

Andy

Mr. T · Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 1

On Oct 22, 6:50 am, agedest wrote:
> Something I'm seeing too much of may not be so common where you climb,
> but I bet it is if you climb where beginners are taken to learn about
> outdoor climbing. I've never been in a climbing gym, where this may
> be the norm, and I think it is a natural part of doing climbing for
> groups. Whoever is on the rock is being constantly advised and
> encouraged.
>
> The people urging them on feel very "good about themselves" for being
> so "positive" and supportive. But what about the climber? I think
> too often the climbers are being pushed too far beyond their ability
> and comfort. That can be dangerous or at least hazardous, and does
> not necessarily make for "a good experience" to force them to love
> themselves and climbing. It can be more in the direction of
> traumatic, being pushed toward too much fear and helplessness. I've
> seen especially girls literally begging to be let down, almost in
> tears. The more the beginner is pushed, the greater the failure when
> they do give up. The more people cheering them on, the more people
> the climber fails to please if the top is not achieved.
>
> If someone does something only because it was demanded by others, what
> did they do themselves? If they were just scooting a foot or hand
> around "No, farther left, up a bit, keep going--there, that's it."
> what did they learn about climbing? If it's all about the mob on the
> ground or a boyfriend and what they say, what was it for the climber?
> Is being the pawn for a group or some guy, what climbing is about? Is
> standing on the ground, staring up at someone with serious leg shake,
> and shouting with a big grin "Come on! You can do it! Good job!"
> what climbing is about?
>
> Not for me, and not for a lot of people we won't see at the rock
> again. It is a big part of why the rocks are so crowded and getting
> worse.
>
> -

You make some good points. I take my 5 year old daughter now, and I
decided from the outset that I would lower her immediately without
question whenever she wanted. OTOH, she keeps asking for a harness,
and I've told her wel'll get her one when she's able to climb to the
top of the gym.

I'm not trying to paint myself as a model Dad. In fact, I am starting
to question if it isn't better in fact to push (guide) someone through
their fear once. It's an interesting topic. Certainly mindless cheer
leading is just plain annoying. How much to nudge someone along is
another. I'll also throw out there that I question if having one or
more people saying stuff like, "put your foot there and stand up on
it" is really helpful to a rank beginner.

Hal Murray · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 14

> I'll also throw out there that I question if having one or
>more people saying stuff like, "put your foot there and stand up on
>it" is really helpful to a rank beginner.

I hate noise. I get turned off by "You can do it" type stuff,
especially when it's loud.

On the other hand, somebody watching has a different point of view
and they can often suggest things that don't seem obvious to the climber.

Is that nubbin on the left good for anything?
Try leaning left so you can layback off the right hand.
You need another inch. Can you move your foot over?
....

--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.

Eugene Miya · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 51

>>>>> just happy to be talking to this esteemed forum...
>>>> Esteemed?
>>>> A Usenet news group?
>>> It's both polite and useful to respect people you talk to, Eugene. Or,
>> Hey, it's the rough and tumble electronic frontier.
....
>>> if this really bothers you so much, think of it as sarcasm.

Rutger Hauer in Blade runner:
>> Ah, that's the spirit.

In article ,
lekker wrote:
>I heard once that a belayer should praise the leader to a point just
>short of sarcasm. Some climbers can encourage with obvious sincerity and
>I've found that helpful. Russ Erickson was a master at it.

As a belayer, I rarely see more than the first few moves off a stance,
or bringing up a follower their last few moves to the stance.
The belayer who can watch the climber they are belaying are either
top roping or bouldering, etc. short things. Climbing I prefer to hear
wind, maybe some rock not whizzing by, etc. I do like being kept
informed between climber and belayer but not the complete pitch.

There are esteemed groups. But at best r.c. is an average group.
Examples of esteemed (recognized by many) are comp.risks which is
moderated by Peter Neumann (who also edits ACM SEN [Sw/ Eng. Notes])
or comp.compilers moderated by John Levine, both of whom with their
groups have produced printed books filled with past postings.
I just saw Peter Wednesday. John might be in Santa Cruz today.
Usenet users should have familiarity with groups in all major hierarchies
as well as local ones and moderated as well as unmoderated.

I think the best reps. from this group include Steve Lindell, Clyde,
and maybe some of the other authors (I got fan email from one for the
FAQs, they especially liked the beginner's post, far from all mine).

Stormy weather today.

--

Mark Heyman · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 7

"Hal Murray" wrote in message @megapath.net...
>> I'll also throw out there that I question if having one or
>>more people saying stuff like, "put your foot there and stand up on
>>it" is really helpful to a rank beginner.
>
> I hate noise. I get turned off by "You can do it" type stuff,
> especially when it's loud.
>
> On the other hand, somebody watching has a different point of view
> and they can often suggest things that don't seem obvious to the climber.
>
> Is that nubbin on the left good for anything?
> Try leaning left so you can layback off the right hand.
> You need another inch. Can you move your foot over?
> ...
>
> --
> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
>

Useful encouragement is an art. I can't manage to spew the "you can do it"
kind of stuff, but I have to admit that occasionally it has given me the
motivation to get through a hard move or two. Most importantly it has to
sound really genuine - it's an art. The most important part of this skill is
knowing when to keep quiet. I give credit to those who can actually help me
climb this way, and I wish I had their skill!

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