Another Broad Stand fatality

newsgroups · Joined: 17 Feb 2008 Posts: 1

Just saw this on the BBC News.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7249240.stm

Another bereaved family due to this infamous crag. Has anybody else
heard or had any experience of the mentioned Mountain Rescue strategy
and its success?

Archived from group: uk>rec>walking

Roger · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 136

The message

from newsgroups@paulswilliams.me.uk contains these words:

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7249240.stm

> Another bereaved family due to this infamous crag. Has anybody else
> heard or had any experience of the mentioned Mountain Rescue strategy
> and its success?

There was a reference to it under the see also heading on the same page
but it does seem to be a general call for care:

" "This is down to poor preparation, a lack of understanding of the
basic skills of map work and navigation, over-ambition and low general
fell awareness." "

that has gone largely unnoticed.

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.

johnhee · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 15

> >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7249240.stm
> > Another bereaved family due to this infamous crag. Has anybody else
> > heard or had any experience of the mentioned Mountain Rescue strategy
> > and its success?

update here:
http://www.wasdale-mountain-rescue.org.uk/callouts~2008.htm

2008:15 16/02/08( 12.22 p.m.) - Saturday
Police paged the team to respond to an incident on Broad Stand,
Scafell . A group of five male walkers from the Midlands were
descending from the summit of Scafell via the Broad Stand route when
one of their party, a male in his late 40's fell whilst climbing down
the difficult rock step. He sustained fatal injuries. He was
airlifted by RAF Valley later that afternoon. 12 Wasdale team members
were involved in the rescue along with a Langdale Ambleside member and
team members from Cockermouth MRT called in to assist. The incident
was closed at 6.30 p.m.

Chris Gilbert · Joined: 30 Nov 2007 Posts: 17

"AJH" wrote
> Is there a minimum standard of safety rope one should carry for
> negotiating awkward steps? I'm not thinking of myself when walking
> solo but more for my granddaughter who has accompanied me on a couple
> of hill walks.

It's your call. If you think that having a basic understanding of
rope skills will make your granddaughter's experience in the
hills both richer and safer then you go out and get them. Otherwise
prepare your route carefully and avoid situations where a lack
of them might expose her to unneccessary risk. Appropriateness
of risk is a part of leadership and it should be managed by you
as the leader.

IMO

Chris
--
Photography by Chris Gilbert
www.ravenseyegallery.co.uk
Affordable web sites
www.sitegateway.net

Chris Gilbert · Joined: 30 Nov 2007 Posts: 17

AJH wrote

> I've had to use ropes professionally and there's no way I'm humping
> one of those around (36m of 13mm kernmantle) but in risk assesment we
> are allowed to take account of "an engineered" solution where caution
> would be seen as the better part of valour".

I agree, but who are you serving in putting your granddaughter
through the risk ? If, as a leader, I found myself obliging my
charges to undertake an uneccessarily risky activity because
I hadn't planned around it ahead then I would think that I had
failed them.

Which is not to say that you shouldn't do this with kids, it's
just that it needs to be carefully planned.

Chris

Simon Challands · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 65

In message
"Chris Gilbert" wrote:

> AJH wrote

>> I've had to use ropes professionally and there's no way I'm humping
>> one of those around (36m of 13mm kernmantle) but in risk assesment we
>> are allowed to take account of "an engineered" solution where caution
>> would be seen as the better part of valour".

> I agree, but who are you serving in putting your granddaughter
> through the risk ? If, as a leader, I found myself obliging my
> charges to undertake an uneccessarily risky activity because
> I hadn't planned around it ahead then I would think that I had
> failed them.

> Which is not to say that you shouldn't do this with kids, it's
> just that it needs to be carefully planned.

It depends on just what we're talking about. Going over Broad Stand is
obviously a risky activity (as this tragedy has reminded us), but
there are plenty of less risky areas that a child could enjoy yet you
might feel it's worth having a bit of security (and shielding kids
from all risks is ultimately counterproductive; where the dividing
line is is your call).

--
Simon Challands

Chris Gilbert · Joined: 30 Nov 2007 Posts: 17

Simon Challands wrote

> It depends on just what we're talking about. Going over Broad Stand is
> obviously a risky activity (as this tragedy has reminded us), but
> there are plenty of less risky areas that a child could enjoy yet you
> might feel it's worth having a bit of security (and shielding kids
> from all risks is ultimately counterproductive; where the dividing
> line is is your call).

Which is what I think I was trying to say but came over
all arsey instead. It was a perfectly reasonable question
but I failed to answer it in a reasonable fashion.

Chris

Roger · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 136

The message
from AJH contains these words:

> >there are plenty of less risky areas that a child could enjoy yet you
> >might feel it's worth having a bit of security

> If we can agree on this then perhaps someone might proffer a
> suggestion of what the suitable security kit may be?

If you are safeguarding from above then you don't need a full weight
rope and neither do you need a particularly long length to get round an
awkward patch.

I descended Broad Stand years ago with a group of real climbers and we
just used a single sling for aid on the difficult step.

I am sure that this subject has come up before but a quick search of the
ng didn't bring up any concrete detail other than the terms walking rope
and safety rope are in use. A more general search brought up the notion
of confidence ropes as well (at rock and run IIRC) using circa 8mm rope.

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.

Bill Grey · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 124

In message , AJH
writes
>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:15:48 +0100, Simon Challands
> wrote:
>
>>there are plenty of less risky areas that a child could enjoy yet you
>>might feel it's worth having a bit of security
>
>If we can agree on this then perhaps someone might proffer a
>suggestion of what the suitable security kit may be?
>
>AJH
>

On the subject of Children, a local deputy head of a school told me that
he wasn't allowed to take kids on a school outing in excess of 2000ft.
So for him Pen-y-Fan was out of bounds however safe to was to go there.
--
Bill Grey

Rob G · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 58

On 17 Feb, 22:11, Roger wrote:
> The message
> from AJH contains these words:
>
> > >there are plenty of less risky areas that a child could enjoy yet you
> > >might feel it's worth having a bit of security
> > If we can agree on this then perhaps someone might proffer a
> > suggestion of what the suitable security kit may be?
>
> If you are safeguarding from above then you don't need a full weight
> rope and neither do you need a particularly long length to get round an
> awkward patch.
>
> I descended Broad Stand years ago with a group of real climbers and we
> just used a single sling for aid on the difficult step.
>
> I am sure that this subject has come up before but a quick search of the
> ng didn't bring up any concrete detail other than the terms walking rope
> and safety rope are in use. A more general search brought up the notion
> of confidence ropes as well (at rock and run IIRC) using circa 8mm rope.
>
> --
> Roger Chapman
> Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
> 89 miles as the crow flies,
> considerably more as the walker drives.

OK nobody has offered an opinion on this safety rope, so I'll put in
my pennyworth. On the basis that this rope is going to be used purely
as support over a 'bad step' for a less experienced walker I would
suggest the lightweight 50 ft I have regularly carried on hills
(Scottish) I'm not familiar with in winter.

In 40 years I think I've only used such a rope once and that was just
to give confidence to a total beginner up a snow covered rocky step.
Any rope within obvious limitations will take the weight of a person
if there is no shock so a single lightweight rope is all that is
required to just give support at some critical point and the 50 ft
length is perfectly adequate.

Rob

Dominic Sexton · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 73

In article , AJH
writes
>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:41:10 -0800 (PST), johnhee
> wrote:
>
>>descending from the summit of Scafell via the Broad Stand route when
>>one of their party, a male in his late 40's fell whilst climbing down
>>the difficult rock step.
>
>Is there a minimum standard of safety rope one should carry for
>negotiating awkward steps? I'm not thinking of myself when walking
>solo but more for my granddaughter who has accompanied me on a couple
>of hill walks.

Knowledge of how to use a rope safely to add real protection not merely
an illusion of protection is the most important thing.

A short length (20m) of 8mm rope should suffice. Knowledge of the
traditional body belay technique and how to attach people securely to
the rope is essential.

If using it with people who are close to or above your own weight you
may well also need to know how to make the best of any natural anchors
in the area. Otherwise there is a danger that one slip from your
companion will take you with them.

Off the shelf 'walkers ropes' are available

e.g.
Field and Trek Product Code: 29350
http://rockrun.com/products-Confidence-8mm-18m_CL-RO-CONF.htm
http://www.nevisport.com/storedetail-3-product_id-374018
http://www.cave-crag.co.uk/ProductDetails/mcs/productID/799

--

Dominic Sexton

PeterC · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 137

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:51:53 +0000, Bill Grey wrote:

> In message , AJH
> writes
>>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:15:48 +0100, Simon Challands
>> wrote:
>>
>>>there are plenty of less risky areas that a child could enjoy yet you
>>>might feel it's worth having a bit of security
>>
>>If we can agree on this then perhaps someone might proffer a
>>suggestion of what the suitable security kit may be?
>>
>>AJH
>>
>
> On the subject of Children, a local deputy head of a school told me that
> he wasn't allowed to take kids on a school outing in excess of 2000ft.
> So for him Pen-y-Fan was out of bounds however safe to was to go there.

Yes, there are special rules for >600m/>0.5 mile from a surfaced road.
I had to speak to the YHA's outdoor safety chappy re. a bike ride, but I
don't remember full setails as they didn't apply in our case.

Mind, it's possible for small apprentices to get in to trouble at lower
altitudes - seen it with Venture Scouts even and they weren't small.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

Mike Clark · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 55

In message
AJH wrote:

[snip]
>
> I've had to use ropes professionally and there's no way I'm humping
> one of those around (36m of 13mm kernmantle) but in risk assesment we
> are allowed to take account of "an engineered" solution where caution
> would be seen as the better part of valour".
>
> AJH
>

That seems like a little over-engineered for a single rope. You can get
certified single dynamic rope for climbing in a much more manageable
diameter of 10.5mm. However I prefer to climb on double ropes and
therefor have 1/2 ropes of diameter of about 8.2 to 8.5mm.

For climbing or abseiling 36 metres of 1/2 rope could be use for a pitch
of just under 18m (depending on how much rope was lost to tying-in and
belaying).

From the point of view of assisting a second on a vertical pitch or
lowering someone a 1/2 rope would be useable as a single rope (i.e. so
long as you are not subjecting it to a dynamic fall factor). If this was
the only use for the rope (i.e. you weren't going to lead climb on
it) you could also use a static rope (e.g. as used by cavers for Single
Rope Technique).

For scrambling and some alpine use (e.g. glacier travel) I've cut one of
my 50m 1/2 ropes into a 20m and a 30m length and then choose to take
whichever of these seems more likely to be appropriate for the planned
outing.

Please note however that before following any of the above suggestions
you really ought to become familiar with basic ropework and also
understand the limitations and possible likely failure modes when using
ropes.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

steviephilips · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 5

On 18 Feb, 17:16, Mike Clark wrote:

> That seems like a little over-engineered for a single rope.

Way too over engineered
..
> You can get
> certified single dynamic rope for climbing in a much more manageable
> diameter of 10.5mm.

You can easily get certified single dynamics in 9mm, aka the Beal
Joker. The even sell a 35M length specifically for use as a 'walking'
rope.

I would not like to go thinner than 9mm, not really enough grip.

steviephilips · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 5

On 17 Feb, 18:51, AJH wrote:

> Is there a minimum standard of safety rope one should carry for
> negotiating awkward steps? I'm not thinking of myself when walking
> solo but more for my granddaughter who has accompanied me on a couple
> of hill walks.

Any thinner than 9mm can be difficult to grip.

Since these days you can get a 9mm rope that is certified for use as a
full, half and twin rope (i.e. its certified for proper climbing) why
use anything else ?

http://www.facewest.co.uk/Beal-Joker.html

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